750
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2024
750 points (98.3% liked)
News
23367 readers
2654 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
I just posted this somewhere else but it belongs here...
It's a jury's job to find a defendant guilty or not guilty of a given charge.
When a jury starts considering whether they feel a charge is fair, they're pretty much just making up the law. At that point you don't need a court and a jury you could just have a bunch of people deciding the defendants fate based on the vibe.
When you say they "don't want jurors to know", they simply want jurors who understand their role in finding a defendant guilty or not guilty. Thinking that nullification is a possible outcome is tantamount to a refusal to fulfil the role of a juror.
Whether a jury feels a charge is fair is the whole reason trial by a jury of peers exists.
It's a feature of the system, not a bug.
The whole reason? Certainly not. The jury instructions themselves prove otherwise.
Part of the reason? Possible.
This is patently false.
It might feel like a nice idea to have a jury sitting around thinking about what the fairest outcome might be but that is simply not their role.
A jury's sole job is to determine whether a defendant is guilty of the charges against them.
If it was a jury's job to decide on fairness she would've gone to trial rather than taking the deal.
I don't think her decision to take the deal took into account whether jury nullification exists or not. The way you explained it sounds like retrocausality, though I don't know if that's the way you meant it.
Jury nullification isn't about fair outcomes, I should clarify, but about whether the law itself is lawful, representative of the people, or applied lawfully. Maybe that fits into the definition of fair I had in mind, but I was thinking on it more objectively, not subjectively.
There are proponents and opponents within the United States, true, but if a legal system does not permit punishment of jurors, then jury nullification is a logical byproduct of the system. And an important one I would argue. It fits into why trials by jury are important in a democratic legal system - the people have the final say, whether they realize it or not.
Jury nullification doesn't exist as an intended option to be afforded Jurors.
Judges instruct jurors to find defendants guilty or not guilty, there is no third "nullification" option.
Jury Nullification is the name given to this type of frustrated process. A jury unanimously declaring a defendant not-guilty of charges they know them to be guilty of is a perversion of their function.
In a democratic legal system, the people elect governments to make the laws, police enforce the laws and judges apply those laws. There is no "juries ultimately decide based on the vibe" part of democracy.
I get what you're saying, and yet it exists and a term exists for it.
I know there's no "nullification" verdict and the binary guilty/not guilty are the only recognized options, but nullification is used to describe the not guilty verdict despite any charges and evidence in a trial, which I'm sure you understand.
Tell that to those abolitionists who were not convicted of harboring fugitive slaves because of jury nullification.
Sometimes laws aren’t just. And as citizens we have a right to stand up to unjust laws.
Correct, but that is not the function of a jury.
Why do we have a jury to decide if a defendant is guilty or not guilty when a judge is trained to do the same thing? Why do we allow a jury at all? I think there's more to the function of the jury than just guilty/not guilty or else they would be replaced with a different system.
I'm getting weary of repeating myself.
It is very clearly not the role of a judge to decide whether a defendant is guilty or not guilty. They are not "trained" to do that. That is the role of the jury. Hence the phrase "you have been found guilty by a jury of your peers".
You have a jury to balance the power of the judge, such that a judge can not simply dole out "justice".
Defendants can elect to have a jury trial. If they don't have a jury trial, who finds them guilty or not guilty? Is it the judge? If it's the judge, why do we allow jury trials to occur when every trial could be determined by a justice of the peace?
What is "training" if not education in the laws and legal system? Are judges not educated in law school before becoming lawyers and then justices? Is this irl experience not also considered training?
Honestly I'm not really sure what you're talking about.
The role of a judge and the role of a jury is a fundamental characteristic of a court. You seem to be mixing them up?
Lol can you tell me what a "bench trial" is?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bench_trial
They can just waive it in writing. So tldr, you're wrong about the role of a judge AND about why we have juries and their role in the judicial system. Which is to be a check toward aristocracy and unfair laws. The jury literally exists specifically to decide guilty, not guilty, or null. That's why it's an option.
The ability to waive your right to a jury trial does not change the role of a jury.
Jury's do not exist to interpret the law according to the vibe of a given case. If they did, obviously Chrystul would've gone to trial instead of taking the deal.
If a jury concludes that the defendant is guilty beyond reasonable doubt then they return a guilty verdict, there is no "unless they're not feeling it" part of the deliberation process.
If a law is unjust, that's a matter for a democratically elected government to resolve, not 12 randomly selected members of the public.
Okay so you now admit that judges can determine a guilty or not guilty sentence? And that judges have special training helping them to understand the law exactly, whereas jurors typically do not have this training?
Yes, it does, because it implies a jury is meant to function outside of the established law by definition and instead focus on law as the people use and understand it. This is justice. That's why we can legally protest and get laws changed.
Chrystal should have indeed gone to trial, that's why so many people are upset she didn't, because we all think she would probably have gotten off. But it's not a guarantee so she took the deal. That's literally why people are talking about jury trials here lol, and her legal counsel.
Like this is such a stupid position. Chrystal, a girl who was sex trafficked most of her teens and is still young, wouldn't know whether it's better to go to trial or not. And her knowledge of if she should go to trial or not doesn't dictate the role of juries lmfao. She doesn't determine that.
Again we go back to why juries exist. They have jury nullification available literally specifically so juries can indeed nullify the law. That is part of the function of a jury. Just because that upsets you, doesn't mean that's not what they are for. Since you didn't even know that a bench trial existed, you're not exactly a legal expert on this.
A jury is a democratically elected government. They are voted in by both the prosecution and defense. And the people in the Supreme Court decide our laws and are a much smaller and more corrupt group. Congress and the senate also make laws and proportionate to the country's population, are also a very tiny group making laws for everyone.
I think you just don't understand juries and this upsets you.
Not the person you're debating (and I'm on your side here), but what's up with all the revisionist history going on lately?
"This thing you're arguing for was never the intent."
Then what was the intent you dimwit?
And they never have an answer aside from acting like it was some grave oversight that was only recently caught as a mistake.
"Structure determines function," was drilled into my head in my anatomy and physiology courses. A lot of people get that switched around.
As I've been repeating ad nauseum, that is not the role of the judge in a criminal trial with a jury present.
This is patently false. A jury determines whether a defendant is guilty or not guilty. That's it. There is no "we feel sad for the defendant" option. Read the transcript of any trial and see how the judge instructs the jury. Jurors do not make up the law "as the people understand it".
That's why "Chrystul's" legal team advised her on her position and instructed her to take the plea deal - because a jury would find her guilty. Obviously, if Jurors just made up the law based on the vibe of a case, her legal advisors would have told her to go to trial because the jury would undoubtedly sympathise with her and find her actions reasonable.
It's preposterous to assert that part of the function of a jury is to nullify the law. You have absolutely no evidence in support of that. If this were true in any way it would be a component in every criminal trial ever heard by a court. Why bother disputing evidence when you can simply talk about the sad circumstances of the defendant. "The victim deserved to be murdered because they were an asshole".
I suspect that you simply prefer to believe you live in a world where good will always triumph over evil. You might find this upsetting to acknowledge but any grown up understands that life just isn't fair, and that bad things happen to good people.
Lol, your responses are honestly hilarious. I'd love to see a real judge react to your thoughts here.
Why would jury nullification be allowed if it wasn't part of the function of the jury?
And yes, "the victim deserved to be murdered because he was an asshole" is a valid line of defense in many cases including self defense and reactive abuse cases.
Yes, that so many people would null or find her not guilty itt and in general shows a jury trial may have really benefitted her. It benefitted others in the past. That's why it was brought up itt. I can start listing precedence, or you could just do even the most basic of legal research and look it up yourself.
You realize that this is a justice system, which has a legal obligation to be fair?
Anyone that's ever had anything to do with the justice system understands that it is not intended to be fair.
Jury nullification is not "allowed", you simply can't punish a jury for returning a "not-guilty" verdict, for obvious reasons.
Disliking the victim is not a valid defense.
Honestly I'm so weary of this. Continue believing that juries make up the law as they like. Feel free to have the last word but I'm done.
Define "fair"
Have you ever heard of "fair and equal under the law"?
It's intent is indeed to be fair. Whether it functions as such is another matter, a topic for justice reformation. Which jury nullification is part of, hence why it exists. Even if life is generally not fair, most humans morally value fairness (even toddlers get this), and all harm reduction is progress and good - so even making the justice system slightly fairer by implementing jury nullification is a good thing and just.
It is allowed. If it wasn't allowed, they'd, for instance, declare a mistrial. They wouldn't accept it. They do.
Again, you're wrong. The person being an asshole is absolutely grounds for being murdered. Including the case where the woman set her husband on fire in their bed. And in most self defense cases. There's literally thousands of cases where people get off for this reason.
I never said that juries make up the law as they like. I said that jury nullification is indeed part of the role of a jury. You are the one with the stance that this must not be so, despite not understanding the legal system, declaring that the legal system is supposed to be unfair, and going around in multiple threads claiming this even when shown how wrong you are with case studies and discussion. I hope you are weary enough to stop spreading weird misinformation about how you pretend society exists, rather than how it actually exists. Just because you personally dislike juries for some unknown reason (parenting trauma? were your siblings and you never allowed to speak up?), doesn't mean you're correct in any capacity.
"What you say disagrees with my world view, so I'm just going to pretend you're crazy and your words don't make sense."
I've had this exact tactic used against me - it's very transparent when used and weakens your position.
That's a pretty polite way to encourage someone to clarify their position IMO.
If you interpret that as an accusation of being crazy and not making sense, I think that says more about you than it does about me.
That is exactly a function of a jury.
The function of a jury is to find the defendant guilty or not guilty of the charges against them. There is no "we feel sad for the defendant" option.