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this post was submitted on 03 Sep 2024
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The main problem with BYD cars is that they are heavily subsidizing by the Chinese government.
If you remove those subsidies then those cars aren’t going to be very competitive. But the problem would be that by the time the Chinese government stopped subsidies, there wouldn’t be any competition left.
Our best ways to counteract this would either be through heavy tariffs or by subsidizing our own companies in the west.
MAGA wants to do the tariffs route which is basically a bandaid solution that would prevent the Chinese companies from owning the US market but it wouldn’t do anything outside of that. Plus it doesn’t solve is being competitive, it’s just covering its ears and “lalala”’ing the issue for later generations to deal with it. Which honestly, that tracks for basically their whole platform.
If you do the subsidies route though, we’d have to make sure we’re not just constantly lining Musk’s pockets but Tesla is the company has the biggest head start. And Musk is a PoS but the devil’s credit is that our EV market wouldn’t exist without Tesla.
IMO, we need to diversify our EV makers and help provide the capital to bootstrap it. And while that’s happening we need to not let cheap Chinese cars flood the market to undercut any chance we have. So basically we need a combination of both solutions.
Yeah anytime the US "subsidizes" something in the local auto market, GM alone eats it up in 5 seconds and pretends they did something with it. Sometimes Ford and Chrysler also get a share.
I'm pretty sure they already recently gave funding to GM for EVs which will go absolutely nowhere because all their major sales are from regular gasoline cars.
I was even hopeful of Ford's hybrid Fusion, but they killed that one too because money.
If they really want to make some serious competition, they should break up the oligopoly of car OEMs. But they never did and never will.
This exact scenario already played out with Japanese OEMs decades ago. They brought a superior product to the market, and instead of competing, they just lobbied congress to make a crap ton of stupid import laws to prevent Japanese cars from taking the market.
Then they had a weird era of those hybrid car brands where the big 3 made partnerships with Nissan, Toyota, etc for tech sharing because they couldn't even properly R&D for crap.
Then Nissan, Toyota, Honda, and Subaru opened plants inside the USA to bypass the import stuff, and here we are today.
The only difference this time is instead of what was generally perceived as an economic ally, the new kid on the block is the next enemy after Russia. And tbh not even a major threat type of enemy.
Wait, why is our largest trading partner our enemy, again?
Washington can't fathom not running their monopoly on every global market lol.
China is supposed to be a dirty 3rd world outsource nation, not a competitor. They should do as told instead of actually investing in their country's infrastructure /s.
Oh fuck, its the trains, isn't it? We are their enemy because they built trains. Its the same reason we tanked Japan's economy in the 90s.
Brother the American industry apocalypse after China invades Taiwan and TSMC is torched will make the economic impacts of the rona look like a tea party.
It’s not even the heavy subsidising, China makes the US look like it has strong employee rights and environmental regulations.
Ugh, that is true but no way should we compromise on that IMO
I would say that all tracks but american car companies are refusing to even attempt to make an affordable electric vehicle, so how can you say its just a gap in research that subsidies would fix.
Subsidies would be drained the same way the profits were, why wouldnt they. American car companies refuse to listen to demand, and this is what they get for it.
If China wants to pay for my next car for me, I'm fine with that.
They could build and sell a basic car (combustion) for under $15k if enough people bought them but most people don't want stripped down compact cars. There's just not enough of a market to justify cheap cars in the US.
I think you are right, and I hate that it is a fact.
What I want right now is a small electric kei truck or utility van for use as an in city daily driver. Just make the cargo area large enough to put 4'x8' sheets of plywood in it and close without any fuss and I am sold, but I don't think that's going to happen here anytime soon.
Ford discontinued selling their small Transit Connect van here recently so that isn't even an option anymore.
Thr problem is there is not a good deal in america period. Even the cheaper cars have horrible privacy and data collection issues. The fact is that every car company in America is predatory and greedy. Not a single one of them is trying to make a good car. The american way is some engineers come up with a great efficient car, and then money people manipulate it into a monster that just has the illusion of being a good car.
Ask an engineer who's worked with the big three what they think of them and they will talk for hours about essentially how immoral they are.
Also maybe ask yourselves why foreign car companies make cars here, and its not just tariffs. A lot of countries, including Asian ones, have better protections for their citizens and its actually cheaper to hire dumb Americans from flyover state.
Some companies specifically target low income areas for the cheap replaceable labour.
I disagree but I don't really have any data or anything.
In my opinion most people want the least car they need. Its a tool and the simpler and more efficient the better. We won't know because there just isnt a line of cars like that.
I have a 2017 Mitsubishi mirage manual thats very simple and efficient, not a bad example.
Mitsubishi sold 87,000 vehicles in 2023 only 13,000 were mirages. Kia sold 782,000, 27,000 were rios. Nissian sold 235,000, 4,000 were versas.
In Europe the dacia sold 493,000, 200,000 were sanderos. Those are the numbers needed to make cheap compact cars.
Its an example of the type of car I think would sell well if an american car company made it.
There is no comparison vehicle by american brands at the moment.
Renault could import the Dacia Sandero and have its msrp be $1000 less than the versa after terrifs. With that kind of price advantage you'd think they would but there's been no effort on their part. The US market for cheap vehicles is too small.
I don't have an issue myself but I think. the average american wants to buy from one of the american brands, even the one thats not american anymore.
I don't think Americans trust dirt cheap foreign goods just yet. Harder to find the right person to yell at you know, or whatever.
The Mazda 3s in the 2010s were cheap and were competitive with the focus sales wise. Kia has sold tons of vehicles and they are piles of cheap garbage yet Americans keep buying their larger vehicles.
So do we have demand for cheap cars or not then? I thought you were arguing the demand wasnt there.
Besides you confirmed by opinion that its common to not trust "piles of cheap garbage".
In my opinion the ford focus was just as much a pile of cheap garbage as the rest but people think Ford is more reliable or at least wouldnt try to kill its own citizens.
The demand isn't there for small cheap vehicles, my point was Americans have no problems buying cheap "foreign" cars.
My opnion of does not reflect the opnion of the American population, kias and Hyundai sell well here.
Our opinions on vehicles are not the issue. Americans don't want cheap domestic small cars which is why they don't sell well here. Americans don't want cheap small foreign cars not because they don't trust cheap foreign vehicles but because they don't want cheap small cars.
Then why do people want a cheap small electric? It being electric changes the whole equation?
I know a ton of people that won't buy new cars to begin with too, you don't think the used car crowd loves cheap small cars?
Is it possible instead of the demand not being there at all, its being diverted to used automobiles and so new car sales are skewed to more expensive cars and luxury cars?
The working class does not buy new cars on the regular as far as I know. The median wage in america is what like 50-55k a year?
Where's the evidence people want compact electric cars?
They are used cars for financial reasons not for preference. Further many people purchase a larger 3 year old used vehicle for the same price as a new small one.
If small used cars were in demand then wouldn't they depreciate less? There are fewer used Honda fits then civics yet they depreciate at the same rate. It appears the used car market preference is similar to the new.
Median household income is $75k. Though car size preferences don't seem to change based on income.
Well per person its 45k per worker but household numbers are fine too, although 35% of houses have two cars so that means they need to double their car budget in most cases.
I'm assuming the demand is there because the federal government has said they are concerned people might buy so many cheap BYDs it would drive american car companies out of business. Why would they care if noone wanted them?
An electric small car still is a small car, which a Ameridans don't want the sales numbers show that. Further people seeking cheap cars are typically not homeowners which makes charging a problem so there's even less of a market for cheap electric cars.
No where is it claimed that Chinese vehicles would drive American car companies out of buisness, the article was discussing how China could use Mexico and nafta to side step terrifs.
Okay so maybe I'm misunderstanding thr whole situation. What's the risk of allowing Chinese BYD imports without tariffs then?
American companies want less competition and certainly don't want to compete against a heavily subsidized vehicle.
So essentially its just an over reaction? I mean that and the tiktok ban were some of the quickest legislation americans have seen lately. Maybe just media fear mongering?
China makes more than small cars, they make medium and full sized too. The larger cheap cars pose much more of a threat than small cheap cars. Both US car companies and the Unions don't want cars from China and their politicians got into line really quick during an election year.
Is there a high opinion of american made cars right now though, large or small? They have been very predatory in the past however many years.
Maybe people would want to save the american car industry if it served it's customers better. I was hoping BYD would force american car companies to go back to trying to make a useful tool instead of a means to extract money.
Trying to explain this to all the Corolla owners
The Corolla is not a compact car, is has the same footprint as most small suvs. The yaris was Toyota's compact.
The Civic was what I was thinking of, excuse me.
Practically the default car for high schoolers in my neighborhood.
New civics are as wide as a Corolla but have a slightly longer wheelbase. They're small compared to midsize and full size SUVs but are not compact vehicles.
American vehicle safety standards, combined with the rising number of SUVs on the road, have driven domestic automakers to increase the size of their vehicles overall.
But the Civic is classically considered a compact car. If you drive into a grocery store parking lot labeled "Compact Cars Only", nobody is going to tow you.
Honda increased the size of the civic to meet us consumer wants, and put the fit in it's place. The crash ratings are the same between the two. Americans don't want cheap small cars it's why the civic outsells the fit 10:1.
That's the line. But they also increased the price. This is an age old business trick. When you're running fat margins, increase the size of the meal to sell more of the product. The Civic has always sold well and I haven't seen anything to suggest sales improved as the chassis size increased.
Not against larger vehicles. But its still marginal. If the F-350 plowing into you at 70mph hits a newer model, you'll be just as dead even if the frame suffers less.
American businesses don't want to sell cheap small cars and American consumers are given fewer and fewer options, as you illustrate when you note these vehicles all swelling in size. But when the price of gas jumps, people start piling into Priuses and Focuses and Elantras. Meanwhile, car graveyards are full of Hummers that never left the dealership floor.
Fit sales peaked back in 2008 when gas prices jumped to $6/gal. But the Fit effectively competes with the Civic at a lower price point. Dealers don't want to sell them when Civics move just as fast and guarantee higher returns.
Do you have anything to suggest that keeping the civic small would not have affected sales?
Americans don't buy the small car options they have. If Americans preferred small cars they would buy the small cars available to them. The only time Americans buy small cars is for financial reasons. They prefer the larger civic over the fit. Both have similar crash ratings and reliability ratings so buyers are choosing a larger vehicle at a higher cost due to preference for size.
Dealers are not hiding Fits in the hopes of selling a civic, people are just willing to pay for a larger vehicle.
One could argue that China's governmental subsidizing of the industry just shows the commitment they have to be a leader and dominant player in the future of transportation worldwide.
Does the American government have such aspirations? Does the American Auto industry have the vision and goal to adapt to a disrupted market?
In my opinion the arguments surrounding this topic come down to which country is going to work harder to play a leading role in the future.
China is making their bet, and the quality of Chinese EVs is increasing extremely rapidly. If they can so easily dominate the American Auto Market that tells us that the Americans have been sleeping at the wheel and need to make some tough choices about spending. We can curtail the onslaught through duties and various taxes and regulations but not indefinitely.
So you're saying that buying one means that the American working class is extracting value from the Chinese government? Sounds great to me.
The vast majority of those subsidies (rebates, sales tax exemption, government procurement of EVs) you linked don't seem like they would apply to exported vehicles. This suggests exports would indeed be very price competitive, wouldn't it?
Are bailouts subsidies?
Ask Mitt Romney today and then ask him tomorrow to get both sides of the issue
What? BMW EV surpassed Tesla sales in Europe for July. BMW, VW, AUDI, Skoda all have very attractive alternatives to Tesla, and Mercedes too, if you want higher quality and don't mind it's a bit more expensive.
So how do you figure there is no competition without China?
From Korea we Have Hyundai and KIA, and from USA there is Rivian and Ford.
Arguably the American competition is the weakest, but still it seems to me there is lots of competition, even without including Chinese cars.
You sure about that?
That’s not what I was saying. What I am saying is that if left unanswered, those cars would kill all of the current competitors over time and then after that we’d be at the mercy of whatever the Chinese car manufacturers would want to charge and we’d be unable to stop it.
Your numbers are June not July, there were dozens of articles about it like this one:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/bmw-overtakes-tesla-european-ev-sales-first-time-report-says-2024-08-22/
And this one:
https://electrek.co/2024/08/22/bmw-tops-tesla-ev-sales-first-time-gap-narrows-eu/
Although it seems to include PHEV it still makes the same claim. So I'm just going with what seems to be the standard.
Sorry, I read it again, and I misunderstood, the beginning of your text implies the opposite. So it's a bit confusing the way you write it IMO.
Great, then every BYD car sold in the US helps bankrupt the Chinese state.