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this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2024
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No Stupid Questions
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Yeah, the famous antifa-tankers. Every single person I've ever seen that identifies as antifa was a tanker. Other people run away from that label.
I really hate that I need to point this out, because I feel like it will derail the discussion from Hexbear to fascism:
"Antifa" boils down to "people who actively oppose fascism", instead of either supporting it or sitting on their hands while doing jack shit.
Maybe you can clear this up then:
Why does everyone there unequivocally, wholeheartedly, unquestionably support Russia?
Russia has barely a trace of communism anymore and it is hard right oligarchy that fits almost every definition of fascism. Not to mention HEAVILY racist and anti-LGBTQ (I have multiple friends who were from Russia and they were the ones who originally told me that before I saw it for myself in Russia)
Yet the "antifa" hexbear will literally down vote you to hell and ban you if you say anything even slightly bad about Russia.
Also news@hexbear is 80% articles about the war with everyone citing Russian propaganda as absolute truth and every western media, every human rights group, etc... is completely lying about the war.
An interesting juxtaposition as they are in the same way pro Palestine and cite those human rights groups as telling the absolute truth in that case
I don't know for sure. I'll voice a strong belief in this regard, but take it with a grain of salt.
I think that Hexbear's views on Russia is a specific case of a general tendency that you see all across social media (not just HB or Lemmy): to dichotomise complex matters into exactly one good side and exactly one bad side, while assuming that everyone belongs to those two bags. It should go like:
It gets messier when you add Ukraine into the equation, or consider people conflating governments and populations, but it should give you an idea - it starts with somewhat sane premises but quickly devolves into insane lack of logic.
It explains nicely why they're supporting Palestine, even with the apparent contradiction: Israel is associated with USA and thus with NATO.
IMO their dichotomy in this topic is idiotic. However it is not just from their part, and blaming specifically Hexbear for this, like some people would do, would be unjust (and a self-demonstrating example). We, people using the internet in the 20s, are collectively doing it.
By the way, you see another example of the general phenomenon in this comment chain. Ctrl+F "elephant shit" and look at the comment I was replying to - "you either treat two types of bad as the same, or you're defending one."
[Now I probably drew the ire of all sides at the same time. Frankly? I don't give a fuck; I'm too old and grumpy to play along.]
You may not like this, but the simple answer is they don't.
Correct. Hexbear critically supports the role Russia plays as an anti-NATO country, and ally to the PRC, who Communists do support.
Communists in general see Western Hegemony as the international proletariat's largest enemy, as the Global North hyper-exploits the Global South. Michael Parenti explains brilliantly in this short, 2 minute clip. Overall, Communists agree with Lenin's analysis in Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism, and agree that it remains the number 1 enemy of the international proletariat.
NATO is the military alliance of the largest Imperialist exploiters of the Global South, and therefore weakening NATO Hegemony is a good thing. The Nationalist, far-right Russian Bourgeoisie fights against this, because they were not allowed to join the club after the fall of the USSR like they had hoped!
Hope that helps.
Then what about when they constantly refer to the rhetoric as "truth" how Ukraine was full of Nazis that were genociding the Russian minority and how Russia invaded to save them and has committed exactly 0 war crimes?
I completely get that the US is not a good guy, most of western civilization was built on exploitation, imperialism, and subjugation of people. I even understand the great things China has done as far as huge quality of life upgrades for their people.
But Russia is only similar to china in that they propagate huge anti-US propaganda and technically support each other as an anti-US coalition.
Russia is also extremely imperialist, always has been, and literally has annexed (or tried to) multiple nations in the past decades, and is currently trying to do the same. Russia is everything that hexbear stands against, yet they unequivocally support them without any doubt.
Go say literally any critical things of Russia in hexbear. You will 100% be down voted to oblivion, if not banned. If you say anything against Putin being the greatest leader in recent history, you will be down voted to hell if not banned. I have yet to see any critical speech of Russia on hexbear that didn't get removed or down voted so hard that the comment will never see the light of day.
I understand being Anti-US, but if Russia was in the US's position, they would be just as bad if not worse for the treatment of people and propagating imperialism. Then to censor people about it... I can scream on other instances about how stupid the US is until I pass out and I wouldn't get banned. That is TruthSocial/theDonald/Twitter territory.
I'm sorry, but again, this is a gross mischaracterization. Please actually read the links I sent, you don't need to read the Imperialism text but at least go through the thread I linked and the Parenti speech.
I have been critical of the Russian Federation and Putin especially on Hexbear, and have been highly upvoted for it. Hexbear's position on Russia is nuanced, ask them to explain it and you'll get explanations.
This is 100% correct, the thing is, nobody but the US is in the US's position. Russia is acting in the manner they are because they aren't.
https://hexbear.net/post/3025711
https://hexbear.net/post/3379624
https://hexbear.net/comment/5253718 top comment, massively upvoted
https://hexbear.net/post/3232536 - more "all Ukrainians are Nazi rhetoric"
https://hexbear.net/comment/4594619 - more "the war is just a local conflict with everyone on Russia's side" propaganda that is heavily upvoted. Objectively false. There is way way more nuance than that.
https://hexbear.net/post/3394475 - Russia never does anything wrong. It is just Americans who of course blame it on Russia
https://hexbear.net/comment/5113469 - Russia never does anything wrong. It is actually a conspiracy that Americans did it
https://hexbear.net/comment/5084604 - Russia can do no wrong. Russia is destined to win and take the lands they want to annex
https://hexbear.net/comment/5084494 - yet more Ukraine genocide rhetoric, straight from Russian propaganda
https://lemmygrad.ml/post/4112194 - literally regurgitating unsubstantiated Russian propaganda. Literally one person saying "if you just blindly believed Russian propaganda 100% of the time, you would be right 70% of the time"
https://hexbear.net/post/2763869 - "Russia is extremely generous with these terms", they only have to give up their land to glorious leader of Russia
imperialism /ĭm-pîr′ē-ə-lĭz″əm/ noun
The extension of a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political dominance over other nations.
A political doctrine or system promoting such extension of authority.
The power or character of an emperor; imperial authority; the spirit of empire.
Literally exactly the definition of Putin's post-socialism authoritarian Russia....
Like "the enemy of my enemy" can only take you so far. Like when Putin blatantly poisoned a political opponent and everyone on hexbear was cheering them and saying "I'm surprised it took them this long"... Supporting a murderous regime because they happen to be against an exploitative corrupt regime doesn't even seem like a valid solution to me.
Again, you are not reading the links, nor are you interested in engaging in good faith. As an example:
The comment was mocking the "no Ukranians are Nazis" rhetoric on a video of Ukranian soldiers with Nazi symbols on their helmets harassing an elderly Russian man. You aren't interested in truth, but debate-broing.
As for your definition of Imperialism, I quite specifically linked Lenin's work on Imperialism as a stage of Capitalism, not merely invasion, yet you obscure that and push the dictionary definiton, again as a measure of bad-faith. Marxists specifically refer to international Monopoly Capitalism as Imperialism, something the Parenti video I linked you touches on well enough to give you a sufficient taste of Lenin's Imperialism so you don't have to read the book for this conversation, yet you twist words and pretend Hexbear is operating on a double standard by using the dictionary definition against a forum of Marxists using Lenin's definition!
It's peak dishonesty, your other links are similarly dishonest readings out of context, hoping people won't actually click the link and see what they really said.
If you aren't going to engage honestly, you need to logout and touch grass.
But if you're anti fascism but pro authoritarianism, you're still wrong...
I highly recommend you give Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism and On Authority a read. At least On Authority, as it's a very short piece, but the two combined should give you a basic understanding of the historical and theoretical basis of why marxists defend the use of authority. I can understand where you are coming from, I was more than a little skeptical of authoritarianism when I was younger and still identified as an anarchist, but I think if you take the time to honestly engage with our position then you will at least understand why our stance is what it is, and how we are diametrically opposed to fascism, even if you don't agree with us.
Blackshirts and Reds was eye opening for me
Plenty HB users are authoritarian. I disagree with them in this; however I don't think that both things cancel out, given the fascism is orders of magnitude worse than authoritarianism alone.
Aaaand you're low-key defending authoritarianism...
Yeah, because saying "cat shit is not as huge as elephant shit" is the same as saying "cat shit is not shit". /s
This guy knows nothing of the political spectrum.
This guy knows nothing of the political spectrum.
Wtf is loam?
Loam (suglinok literally means "next to clay") is a sandy soil with under 35-40% clay content, as you can tell from the political compass I posted
Liberalism in the center? Gosh, this is the most American political coordinates there could be
It's almost physically triggering how off-base that is
I’m sorry, I’m an American where liberals are actually centrists, but can you explain to me what else is off-base about this chart?
Edit: I would also like to see a chart that is more accurate in your view if you have one available.
Generally, it is the fact that right-wing entails focus on businesses and private property owners, and left-wing entails direct focus on the economic wellbeing of everyone and a more egalitarian society. Liberals do not strike a meaningful balance here, and commonly see business freedoms as paramount to building a prosperous society, generally pursuing business-friendly policies.
In more extreme cases of the political spectrum (which I agree for in terms of clarity and fairness, but which are not really a consensus) left-wing is seen as actual socialism (i.e. collectively/socially owned enterprises) and right-wing is capitalism (i.e. private property and its operation for profit). This makes a useful and clear distinction in relation to economic policy and is not dictated by the hegemony of one option. It also makes centrism virtually impossible, which is good, because the meaning of "center" drifts radically between cultures, and most people tend to just associate with whatever is predominant in their culture while calling themselves such.
Here is how voters of neighboring Canada have put themselves on a political compass, on average, in relation to their party of choice during the 2019 election. Note that liberals are very much not in the center, and more right-wing, while conservatives as well as People's party (don't look at the name, it's seen as far right even by American metrics), predictably, are extremely authoritarian-right.
P.S. Sorry for being a bit rash :)
I see US liberals as defending both social and economic policies. Here are some examples I can think of:
I am just speaking to what I observe, but I think the trick the liberal party in my country play is a show of being “for the people” and giving concessions but, in the end, being absolutely capitalist motivated.
Yes! The latter part of what you say explains exactly to me why liberals cannot be the center.
Being "for the people" is more of a show here, while they are funded and act in the interest of businesses. When people do demand change that goes against capitalists, they will play everything to keep the spectacle while clearly not choosing people's side. Often times, they don't even give concessions - just pretend internal struggles stopped them from implementing the changes. And at the same time, this doesn't break the logic of liberalism.
Thanks for clearing that up. Also, I find it ironic talking to another leftist on the Hexbear hate thread.
Heh
Not a Hexbear member, though. Generally, Lemmy is heavily left-leaning.
I can see you’re not a hexbear, but this is a post in a .world comm where even enlightened takes on liberals such as yours aren’t always welcome. Anyway, thanks for the chat.
Why would you let a "chart" trigger you physically? What good will that do?
The point is that it skews the understanding of "left" and "right" to favor the latter.
Essentially serving as a tool to claim socialist policies extreme and liberal ones perfectly balanced.
Sounds like your just slurring his opinion without trying to be civil and engaging with honest logical discussion.
Which I would certainly engage in if I wouldn't remember you personally as a troll who cares little of civility.
If someone else is up for debating it, I'm always here.
Also, one thing you genuinely caught me on is a bit of an emotional outburst, while I generally am the one picking civility card. Good job! I do apologize for that part.
The coordinates are heavily skewed and likely to either be formed in a right-wing society or intentionally made as to confuse people.
Now your slurring me personally. Shame on you. How hard is it to believe I had a moment of emotional outburst? I hope you get the help you need and can be a kinder gentler person. Good day to you I hope your soul finds balance.
My apologies. I previously didn't see you in civil conversations, while meeting you in your rainy ways twice before, and I could be too quick to conclude. Lemmy is flooded with that kind of stuff lately, which turns brain into a razor mode as a way of protecting against an artificial hate wave.
If you'd like to politely discuss anything, I'm all for it.
Is there something in the name requiring people to support fascism if it wears the right color?
Do some people fighting fascism (aka antifa) go overboard? Yes, certainly; that's bound to happen with any movement, group, or cohort.
For example, someone might miss the target due to witch hunting, or adopt an "ends always justify means" mindset, or even conflate "non-suporter = enemy".
However. By implying that "antifa is fascism wearing a different colour", like you are doing, you're showing to not understand the obvious difference between
This conflation between both groups is not just immoral. It's worse - it stinks stupidity and similar filth from a distance. As such I'm not wasting my time further with you, go chew some grass.
Maybe you're telling on yourself by announcing your disdain for antifascists
Most antifa groups are anarchist collectives. So I'm not sure where you're seeing this, unless it's solely from people that are terminally online.
Organized anti-fascist groups often have a mix of left ideological backgrounds, but are mostly anarchists and communists. We work together when it comes to physical defense, barricades, etc.
e.g. many people in black bloc are Maoists even though outsiders tend to assume they are all anarchists.