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Yep, it's going to make everything more expensive
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2024
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That's how import taxes work. Now you may have incentive to spend your money at the local manufacturer, instead of chinese one, and he may have more money to buy whatever services you provide.
There is enough of dumb shit you can attack trump for, no need to attack him for the one that actually makes sense.
Tariffs only make sense when you can outcompete or at least get parity with your opposition. We can't do that immediately and Trump is like a child who never had to wait for anything because he's quite literally a child who's never had to wait for anything.
You can use the money from the tariff to help local bussines to strive towards that goal.
So how does that make products cheaper in the short term that he says it will, I.e the 4 years of a presidency?
With his proposed tariffs of 100%, washing machines used to cost $500, they are now $1000. Same machine, same features. Washing machine factory dont exist locally, and may not even exist because the margins may still not work out. Even if they intend to build one, how does that help me even long term? Washing machine prices are now anchored at $1000 instead of the $500 because their only competition has their price controlled at that rate.
How is me losing $500 dollars from now on for the same product saving me money? How does this repeating for hundreds or thousands of products help me save money while losing more money on each of them?
it does not, goal of the tax is not to make product cheaper.
well the goal is obviously encourage growth of local manufacturers, so hopefully there will be one (or more)
your neighbour now may have a job manufacturing washing machines he didn’t have before and can buy service you provide, so you will also end up with more money.
the state has 500 usd from some imported washing machines, which, hopefully, it will invest wisely to further increase the general well being of the population (don’t laugh, i know. but if they don’t, that’s not problem of the economic principal)
and when one day china says “no more washing machines for you, unless you bow to winnie the pooh here”, you may say “fuck you, we are actually manufacturing washing machines at home”
the last part, the self sufficiency, is the most important. my country officials were bowing and saluting to china cargo planes carrying masks and syringes during covid and there were real fear they if they did not, the plane might not have landed. and being dependent on china, which is euro-atlantic civilization’s geopolitical enemy is not smart long term strategy.
well you now have more players on the market than before, so there is more competition and you are in better position than before. but unfortunately it is true that things will not get cheaper. there is 8 fucking billion of us on the finite planet and we are finally starting to realize it does not allow for infinite growth. more expensive stuff aka our ability to have less of it is manifestation of that problem, it is not some fluke that smart politician will solve with right slogan.
Nope. Tariffs are price increases. They don't directly generate revenue.
yes, they are, that's what taxes do.
yes, they do, that's what taxes do.
No, people just won't buy that shit, necessities are by in large owned by huge multi national corporations who won't end up paying that tariff they'll just wrap it into the price and pass out to the consumer.
i don't think you understand what tariff is and how it works. say there is some american made goods, it costs 10 usd. and here is the chinese equialent, it costs 5 usd, for seemingly similar product.
majority of people will buy the 5 usd product, because "they are not dumb, right" ^TM^
you subject that chinese product to 5 usd import tax - now both of them cost 10 and you can as well buy the home made made one.
yes, it is more expensive for you.
but on the other hand your neighbour now may have a job he didn't before and can buy service you provide, so you will also end up with more money.
and the state still has that 5 usd which, hopefully, it will invest wisely to further increase the general well being of the population (don't laugh, i know. but if they don't, that's not problem of the economic principal)
and when one day china says "no more products for you, unless you bow to winnie the pooh here", you may say "fuck you, we are actually manufacturing the product at home and we are not going to starve without you"
the last part, the self sufficiency, is the most important. my country officials were bowing and saluting to china cargo planes carrying masks and syringes during covid and there were real fear they if they did not, the plane might not have landed. and being dependent on china, which is euro-atlantic civilization's geopolitical enemy is not smart long term strategy.
Ideally that's how it works. Economics are rarely of ever ideal and tariffs statistically do not end up working as ideal.
nothing in the world works optimally. that doesn't mean we stop trying.
It doesn't mean we stab ourselves to death either though.
Except, more likely, there are few available competitors to the tarriffed product and now the consumer covers the increased cost. Meanwhile, local alternatives, where they are available, price up because, well they had market when the pre-tarrif import was available and their own delta was what it was, so they can push the price up to just capture more profit with the same or still larger market, depending on the good.
The point is that deploying the sort of policy is incredibly tricky in the best of circumstances, and still likely to do more harm than help. And that you think, of all people, someone as very obviously stupid as Trump is capable of threading that needle is beyond baffling.
Striving toward a goal is not immediately. Immediately people will see higher prices on a lot of familiar brands.
yes, striving toward a goal is, by definition, not immediately.
yes, that's how long term goals work. you are building a house, you have bought a brick today, spent money, and you still don't have a house!
Our point is that you still need shelter while you build a new house.
sure, but that doesn't mean the idea of building a house is bad one.
People aren’t arguing that tariffs are bad, they’re arguing that large instant tariffs are.
But this is a very stupid one that he doesn’t seem to understand how to work it. Let me give you one example that hit last time this asshole was in office.
My spouse works for one such import company. While it is US based it gets its metals and product from China and a few other Asian markets.
I wont get into the details as to what all they make but they provide a lot of various hardware items that you find in the large retail hardware outlets.
When Orange Man did this last time, guess what happened? They simply increased the prices to compensate and pushed all that down the line to consumers. When the bottom dollar got bad enough they laid off employees. Same thing happened at some of the other companies she worked with.
Thing is the US hardly manufacture anything, anymore. In fact a lot of the metals and other stuff we no longer mine. It’s easy to say ‘This makes sense’ well no, it doesn’t - he is running his mouth again to get votes without considering the long term effects of how it will damage the economy even worse.
tbf, we manufacture a lot still. It's just typically things that require skilled workers and advanced machinery, not common consumer goods. The only consumer goods we produce in large values anymore are cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, and handheld electronics.
You're only looking at and mentioning the short term effect, not any long term effects, and then criticizing others for the same thing. The long term effect is inefficient businesses like your spouses company shuts down, and local production increases at all levels.
Global ecomonies are incompatible with life on Earth, as we have learned.
That's a wild claim. Can you back that up with any data that shows tariffs always increase local jobs and income?
It's a wild claim that companies that have to pay fair value for their materials and labor either close or find more local resources to continue operation?
So your data is "I'm just guessing it works that way." Neat.
My main issue with your statement is the one you dodged addressing. To qoute:
"Local production increases at all levels."
Please source the data that shows people paying 200% the price for required goods, and spending way less discretionary money overall, somehow makes production increase at all local levels.
I'll even help by giving you some parameters. Remember, Trump has promised we will immediately start paying less for everything as soon as he enacts these tariffs. That's the exact opposite of how tariffs work, but okay. Ignoring the raw stupid, can you show me data that jobs/income/quality of life of all citizens goes up in a nation that enables extreme tariffs in a 4 year period after they are enacted?
Are you purposely misunderstanding things like all conservatives do or do you really not understand how increasing import costs above local source costs increases demand and thus production?
So still no facts or data and down to personal insults instead of addressing any part of the discussion.
Have fun out there mate.
So that means we'll get cheap EVs and solar panels, right?
Cheap and not exploiting people and environment unfortunately don't go hand to hand. You have to choose your priority.
They actually do go hand in hand. Just not under the american economic system. China has cheap evs higher average wages when factoring in ppp, and a better environmental track record and future than the US.
Oh yes, the famously non exploitative economy of China. The country where some companies are installing fences on the roofs so that their working forces can't suicide so easily. The country were political prisoners are being used as cheap working force. That one? Doesn't sound so much better or even different from the American economic system.
The specific company you're likely thinking of is famously American company Apple.
Or rather a legally distinct subcontractor that does nothing but produce products for Apple and is thus de facto a part of Apple regardless of legal ass-covering.
As opposed to the US where more or less ALL prisoners, some of which are political prisoners, are slaves?
In case there's any doubt, none of what I just pointed out exhonorates Chinese mistreatment of workers in any way.
Equally horrible or even less horrible doesn't ever equal good enough.
Yes, that is exactly why I wrote that it's not so different from the American system
Oops, guess I missed that part, my apologies. In my defense, it was late here 😁
Did you step out of a time machine from the early 2000s? Also that second part just isn't a thing in China. Id recommend actually reading up on modern China, what they did to the foxxcon ceos that did cause suicide inducing working conditions, and why China will surpass the US in every positive measure by the end of the decade
they actually do not. whatever your business is, you can do it with or without passing negative externalities on your employees and environment you operate in.
in one case your product will be cheaper, but with bad consequences, and you have to choose one of these paths.
Easy to do when you skip 200 years of industrialization. I get what you're saying, and you're not wrong, but they just happened to be in a more advantageous position to start with in this instance.
"skip"? Not strong on history are you?
How do you think your food gets to your table?
"Cheap" is relative, stop being deliberately obtuse.
Say you are right, and magically stuff is made in the US. What would stop the US mega corps from just raising their prices 19pct? Still cheaper and free profit.
Why would large manufacturers move to a US with all its pesky eco rules and labor protections if you can just stay in your current country where you invested in your factories and just have the US consumer eat the price hike?
Investing in a country due to tarrifs is risky, cause if the tarrifs ever go away you invested in an uncompetitive manufacturing plant.
Tarrifs will be met with counter tarrifs causing other sectors to implode. The last round of trump tarrifs on china needed to be spent on farmers in the US almost completely because china tariffed their products and their main customer base in china dissapeared over night.
Bwahhahahahah... You're funny.
I get what you are saying, but compared to where these companies are now...
i honestly don't understand the question. why should they do that? what's stopping them now? what's your point?
because you can now produce at home at a competitive price?
indeed, longterm stability and predictability is important. there are unpredictable factors in 3rd world countries the west civilization currently exploits as well, so the goal is to be more stable and predictable at home. i am not saying it is easy.
so... it worked?
You are either being silly or intentionally taking weird positions.
oh i am? 😂
yes. and when your competitor is not bound by the same regulations as you are, you may find that unfair, because he can achieve cheaper prices on the same market.
what? the current competitor's price is lower than yours and you are trying to level the field. you are approaching the price from the opposite direction than you suggest, so what you are saying makes no sense.
and the goal of the tariff is to change that.
exactly. that's why they have no problem exploiting people and environment in 3rd world countries. if you change the rules of the game to make it profitable for them to come back, they will do that.
i never said it is easy.
yes, this is sort of a prisoner's dilemma and lot of economic problem's is like that in modern world. i don't have a solution for that, but it is pretty clear that selfish strategy for everyone is not actually working for anyone right now.
it worked, because farmers who got in trouble were compensated according to what you said. i am not american, i don't know details about trump tariffs and i in no way defend trump or his implementation. i am just saying tariffs are not stupid idea. the specific implementation is what can make it work or not and you can fuck up there, i am sure.
goal of the tariffs is not make stuff cheaper.
Trump points to tarrifs when asked what he will do to make life more affordable to Americans. For the rest I suggest some more econ classes.
sounds like reasonable idea. when do you start?
Tariffs tend to make all sides poorer. We benefit from cheap imports, because those imports serve as inputs to our companies. Additionally, tariffs on our side tend to be matched by tariffs on the other sides which will hurt exports. There’s no realistic scenario where a broad tariff benefits the local economy.
in a similar way you benefit from first few cheap heroin doses. so, not really.
my country officials were bowing and saluting to china cargo planes carrying masks and syringes during covid and there were real fear they if they did not, the plane might not have landed. we had indeed no capability to produce syringes and masks at home.
being dependent on china, which is euro-atlantic civilization’s geopolitical enemy number one, is not smart long term strategy.
Tariffs, especially irresponsible ones like those of Trump, are just price increases for consumers in both countries and subsidies for domestic companies making an inferior and/or expensive product.