https://midwest.social/post/18536008
Edit of yesterday's meme with accounted for non-voters
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Oh, okay, so let's just let that last step happen. It's effectively nothing, right?
You do realize that 'anything else instead' will be harder under a fascist regime, right?
Even if you think this is nothing but buying time, buy it. Hastening the arrival of fascism isn't exactly good praxis.
You just voting is not preventing the last step happen is my point.
If people put all the effort you put into thinking and talking about voting to doing direct action, it will probably be better. But most voters will go "oh well, we tried" and let fascists do fascist things which is the exact things that has been happening for the past 50 years, which is why you're at the point of voting for a fascist & genocide or just voting for genocide.
Just Buying time is only effective is you actually do something with the time you buy. Do I need to mention you've been "buying time" since Reagan and yet you're still at fascism and genocide? I'm not saying to hasten fascism. I said put all the effort you put into voting into doing direct action, which is the only thing actually stopping fascism. The figurehead above doesn't matter.
It quite literally is, unless you think there's no difference between who wins in this election, in which case I would prefer you say it and save us all the time.
Preventing something from happening in an immediate sense is still preventing it from happening, even if it doesn't solve the long-term problems leading to it. Patching up a hole in one's gut may not solve the autoimmune disorder that's killing you, but it'll prevent you from dying in a more immediate sense.
... all the effort we put into thinking and talking about voting?
Most people in this country don't even bother to vote regularly. Those that do often put no more effort into their vote than a day at the polling station based on a few caught glimpses of the political realities of this country.
What level of effort is that going to translate into direct action? You're looking at people entered into a 100-meter sprint, nearly half of whom decided to drop out before even beginning, with many of those who've finished are bitching about how long it was, and saying "If they put that effort into an ultramarathon, THEN we would really be getting somewhere!"
Is it your opinion that we are more fascist now than we were 50 years ago, then? Or 100 years ago?
Buying time give the potential to do something with the time bought. Not buying time doesn't magic into existence extra options; not buying time only reduces your options.
Really? Because I would think that a literal fascist and his cronies being put into executive power might hasten fascism a tiny bit.
So you do think that there's no difference in who wins the election, and this whole conversation is pointless?
Genuinely curious, because I see you using this narrative a lot. What are you planning to do after the election to end the genocide? You seem to balk at direct action and talk a lot about voting which is fine, but voting takes 5 minutes and we watched Kamala backtrack on all of her progressive policies and muzzled Walz' progressive nature. What are you going to do after the election?
As mentioned, I'm not even whole enough to walk more than a few blocks, and I live self-employed and under the poverty line. All I can do is donate when I can and speak to those close to me. I write my reps, but that's pretty in-line with representative democracy, and I get the feeling that you're looking for non-voting action outside of the norm. I've notably reddened my social circle, but that's all I can claim.
I miss being able to march. But I have neither the physical nor emotional fortitude for that anymore.
I don't balk at direct action. I decry the idea that it's a replacement for voting. Direct action is important. Voting in certain elections is, likewise, important. Dedication to direct action does not and should not preclude taking one day out of the year, or less if you live in a state with good mail-in voting laws, for harm reduction, especially when that harm is at an exceptionally bad precipice point. Nor does voting preclude direct action.
We've gone back and forth with each other in the past about voting, but I understand why it's so prominent for you now. I'm of the belief that it's the easiest and least effective method of change, so it's been frustrating to seemingly see no real plan to put on the pressure folks are telling us to wait for.
It is the easiest and least effective, on its own. But its the least effective in large part because it is an action taken only one or two days out of the year. Each of those days are a significant junction from which massive changes are possibly. Often bad ones, which is why it's all the more important to use those one or two days.
Direct action is food and water, but voting is medicine. Medicine won't save you without direct action, but refusing medicine when ill will ensure that direct action does that much less in keeping you alive. Or ensure that the problem kills you outright before you can get your body the necessary nutrition to sustain itself.
Are US troops involved there? Because one candidate clearly says that Biden is not doing enough to help Israel.
Israel currently is led by a similar fascist with criminal record to trump, that once he loses his power he will go to jail. He is using attack on October 7 as an excuse to get rid of Palestine.
And we have seen that no one can really stop Israel. Do you think Biden wouldn't prefer that the conflict would be over (and Israel wouldn't be stirring new shit) and not distract from the war in Ukraine?
It's clear that Netanyahu won't stop what he is doing no matter what and actually wants trump to win as trump promises to help.
Yes. Biden officially sent 100 troops to Israel a few weeks ago.
I'm looking ahead, beyond the election. Don't start lecturing me about this shit, because I've heard it a million times. Biden is doing less than Reagan did towards Israel.
100 troops? That many? Why didn't the whole Middle East surrendered already?
But seriously, this was response to Iran's attack and the soldiers are there to operate THAAD batteries to stop Iranian rockets (you know, to discourage Iran from firing at them in the first place to reduce chance of escalation).
I was asking how many US soldiers are actually taking part in the offensive in Gaza.
Ultimately, there's no difference who wins this election. You are still going inexorably to move towards fascism and genocide, as we've seen in all the past elections.
You're not. You're just adding stab wounds instead of bullet wounds and say "well, better than bullets at least."
If all the dedicated people doing all the voting prep work did the direct action work, it would have improved people's lives and you would have converted them to direct action as well. but since voting doesn't do shit, nobody gives a shit.
More. In fact, I think you're one step before civil war and I doubt you will avoid it through any amount of voting.
You won't though, because your praxis is conditioning people to think voting is the only thing that matters, since everyone is putting so much effort all the time convincing people how important it is to vote for the next thing that's just around the corner. You don't buy time. You just hasten fascism by not doing direct action and by putting all your energy into talking about how important voting is and begging politicians with letters.
Ultimately there's no difference for your society no. You'll still move towards fascism and continue the genocide.
Oh, cool, I'll remember this if Trump wins and we're in line for the camps together. "Ha ha, this is just like it was in the good old days, under those damn Democrats, right?"
Okay. Let's go with that analogy. With the choice of a stab wound or a .50 cal through the chest, which is preferable? Which will give you more time to deal with the problem?
You think... the US... is more fascist now than it was in the 70s. Or the 50s. Or the 30s. Or the 10s.
Check, please!
You should probably resist that with something direct. Maybe some action.
None so long as you keep giving thumbs up for the guy stabbing you because they're not using a .50 cal.
Ye. They were bigoted as fuck, sure. But they were not actively, blatantly as fascist as they are now.
My guy, I'm a fucking near-sighted cripple with a history of depression and suicide attempts. I'm not going to overwhelm any government goons with my elite hand-to-hand skills, trusting me with a gun in the long term will likely end up with my own brains splattered on the walls, and I'm not going to outshoot anyone when I'm recruited for the anarchist militia.
Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it's erecting death camps might be a good idea?
So which kills you faster? Being stabbed repeatedly, or being shot with a .50 cal repeatedly?
You're continuously avoiding this because you know damn well that "Killing yourself faster" IS less desirable than "Killing yourself slower", even using the assumptions in your own argument.
Holy fuck. Jesus H. Christ. Do you have any idea just how much more authoritarian the US was in years past!?
There's plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesn't mean "take a rifle and fight". It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.
If you wait until you're led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then it's (probably) too late.
The only thing that will prevent that is knowing people will actively resist that.
4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: "Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s conducting genocide might be a good idea?"
And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years you'll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knows...
Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going "But if I don't choose the knife, they might pull out a gun." Instead of asking yourself "why the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killer". Voting for the tools of your destruction is you accepting that your killer has your support to keep killing you.
Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasn't actively fascist.
Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when you're personally being led to the pit?
When we're at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, I'm pretty sure that 'supporting my fellow humans' isn't what's going to keep me out of the camps.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently 'pure' in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and it's even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
The state hasn't 'fallen' to this point. That we're even having this discussion on the national stage is a sign of the changing times, sad as that is.
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed we're descending into fascism from, right?
Holy shit, you have to be at least near my age. You can't possibly confuse the state of our youth with conditions now.
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
...
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more 'fascist', in your view, back then?
My guy, I'm entirely in support of people forming orgs for voluntary association and organization outside of state power. But you also have to reckon with the fact that state power is immense currently, that non-state actors are not in a strong position currently, and that state power has the capacity to become much more repressive than it is currently.
My message is not "Vote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actions". My message is "For fuck's sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONE"
You want to talk long-term plans? I'm game. You want to talk creating counterbalances to state power through trade unions, syndicates, communes, self-defense organizations? I'm game to talk. But none of that contradicts "Do not let those who want the state to become WORSE into power" or "Fascism is BAD for organizing".
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
I ain't ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesn't matter how many "levels of power" they hold when guillotines are being erected.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights? Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? It's funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
You're not stopping the killer though. You're just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
You didn't answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didn't work? Only just before the firing squad?
Cool, I have a week and a half before the election. What direct action can I take to keep myself out of the camps, since voting is no longer pure enough for my high-minded ideology?
...
Do you remember how the guillotines were erected?
Do you think they were just magicked into existence?
You would think this would be a point in favor of not letting the state fall into fascism, even considering that Weimar Germany was far from trans-friendly and banned trans-related materials from the Institute for Sexual Science from being distributed.
Again, this would seem like a really good reason to not allow fascism to take over the state.
What was the plausible path away from this with a rabidly pro-Israel US public, again?
Nixon resigned only after his own party told him the political fallout would be too great for them to bother backing him.
Are we really going on the position that Nixon wasn't fascist as fuck? I'd like to be clear on the matter, since you haven't specified any actual issues.
Yes, which buys me more time to act against him.
It takes next to nothing to ensure the killer uses the knife instead of the gun. Yet you insist that the only moral option is to let the killer choose his own weapon, and then nobly martyr yourself on the .50 cal and call it resistance.
What criteria are you putting here for voting not working? As I've already outlined that fascism will come quicker without participation of left-elements in voting, and your only response has been "Yes, well, you're still dying slowly", I'm not really sure you're 'getting' what 'buying time' means.
You think the camps are opening straight after the election? Come on, this takes time.
As for action, anything which is available to you. Even providing sysadmin support for orgs would be something one can do.
Not quite sure what point you're trying to make against my analogy here.
The point I am making is that there's always progress and reaction growing together in capitalism due to the increasing inequality. The fact that progress is happening doesn't mean the society isn't growing more and more fascist.
What does that have to do with the point I was making?
You realize those gay rights came from below against the wishes of then, state? Much like the gay and civil rights came from below in the USA against the wishes of the state and capital? Funny how only direct action keeps getting the goods, innit?
It doesn't matter if Nixon would love to be a dictator. It matters if society was ready to accept fascism, which USA wasn't back then, but is now.
It also legitimizes your stabbing, since you voted for it. So why would anyone help you stop it. And anyway, you don't have any plan to stop it.
One has to ask themselves, why would the killer actually give you a choice in the matter. What is the benefit to the killer to killing you slowly. This is the question you don't want to face.
Is your society doing genocide when it wasn't before? Is your society on the threshold of masks-off fascism when it wasn't before? Is inequality increasing or decreasing? Are working class people's lives improving or not? You know the answers to all these, but you choose to limit yourself in thinking that things were somehow improving because some things were getting better.
Okay. What direct action can I take to keep me out of the camps between now and Trump coming into power?
That would strengthen the orgs, which is a good thing to do.
It would not keep me out of the camps unless you have some delusion that American society is going to make a 180 based on my actions in the next few months.
Affecting change takes years. Generations. Which is why it's important to fight for change now, and why it's important to buy ourselves that time to fight for it.
The executions of the French Revolution were enabled by the capture of the state apparatus. Control of the state is absolutely a useful tool, and rejecting democracy as a means of acquiring control, or denying enemies control, is nothing short of foolishness. And certainly the French Revolution didn't occur all in a moment. Revolution is only as powerful as the opinions backing it - right now, what do you see in the American people as regarding opinions towards your ideology? You really think you've got a shot right now?
Make the vote. It's a day of your fucking life, at most. It buys you extra years to build what you need to build; to educate who you need to educate.
Don't let fascism win because of apathy towards who controls the state. Who controls the state is important, even if you don't like that it is.
So by that logic, society has been getting more fascist effectively every day since the 17th century, correct?
My society isn't doing genocide when it wasn't before. It remains backing a genocidal ethnostate. It was backing a genocidal ethnostate before. It was backing a genocidal ethnostate since before I was born. Funny enough, my society was doing genocide itself, and not that long ago - but that's no longer occurring. Are we less fascist?
... how can that be a criteria for fascism? That's recursive.
Increased slightly in the US - GINI increased from 36ish to 40ish.
Yes, absolutely. That people's lives are not improving enough is a different issue.
You're operating from the axiom that society is getting more fascist continually, despite the logical absurdity of that considering both US and world history, and the mechanisms you've proposed, and are desperately searching for evidence to back that up, instead of the reverse. Evidence should shape your opinion; your opinions should not shape the evidence you accept.
That there was no plausible path away, contrary to your claim?
You keep asserting there is a path away without the groundwork being lain.
What rights did they get against the wishes of the state, again?
... you do remember where most gay rights progress happened in this country, right?
Oh, I wasn't aware direct action was what elected numerous liberal state legislatures and appointed liberal justices to the Supreme Court, silly me. I thought they were elected or something. Silly me. I guess we are living in an anarchist commune, contrary to my initial beliefs.
So fascism is when the dictator is untouchable. That's the only criteria for fascism. Great. Guess Pinochet wasn't a fascist either.
This is the same stupid spiritual approach to politics that MLs spout. Sorry for being too much of a sinner for the anarchists to let into heaven.
... because I advocate for voting for the knife... I have no plan to stop it.
Okay. Thanks for being a mind-reader, but apparently not a text-reader where I advocating for the creation and strengthening of alternate bases of power to the state.
Because the metaphor falls apart when you start asking questions of motivation, because the state is not some single satanic entity for your paragnosticism to oppose. The state consists of numerous and opposing forces, many of which can be played against each other, and most of whom do not share goals. It's the same delusion as treating 'capital' as one thinking, malicious class entity instead of a disparate group of interests - something even fucking Stalin recognized the absurdity of.
Check please!
Sorry but I don't have time for this sort of deluded discussion.
My guy, I grew up listening to my grandfather's tales of working in a factory; my mother likewise worked in a factory, and though miserable, had a very different experience that I grew up listening to her talk about. If you want, we can discuss harder data points - hours worked per year, pay, healthcare, safety standards, worker protections, sexual harassment...
This is such a fucking privileged liberal take. Whatever, keep believing the lives of the working class are improving until the same working class votes the fascists in, out of sheer desperation. That'll work...
So you don't want to talk harder data points, because that might confront you with the fact that politics aren't spiritual manichaean bullshit, and instead require an analysis of the complex interactions of conflicting power bases. Also, the idea that the working class is voting fascists in 'out of sheer desperation' is an insanely city-liberal take, for the record. You may as well have said that after having breakfast at some rural diner and writing an op-ed waxing poetic about the beauty of the simple rural life a month before the election.
I understand the obsessive materialism of modernism is (rightly) out-of-vogue, but retreating to a positively medieval worldview of political ideology is not the solution.
Alright mate, then everyone's lives are improving, but people are too stupid and brainwashed to see it. You're there to scold them the right way. Good luck with that.
Most people's lives are materially improving.
That's not enough.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive. The recognition that we're getting more scraps than we were before is not justification for only receiving scraps - we deserve more than scraps
We are better poised now to see the inequalities and oppression which has long-been-present in society - arguably always been present. We have the tools of communication and education to observe it clearly, and we have the tools to fight it.
People are stupid and brainwashed, but not in feeling dissatisfied with the current state of affairs. Typically, the stupidity and brainwashing comes in play when asking them what is causing their dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs.
Man, I'm asking that people vote in addition to direct action. It's not a big ask. I promise.
Absolutely deluded.
I invite you to do some study on contemporary American history. The recent past will horrify you, I promise.
Bros that's crazy. Are you bots or just care about the opinion of randos online a lot?
I mean, we're both regulars on here. Some rando I probably would've told to fuck off, but @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com has a good head on his shoulders, and I trust that I can have a legitimate argument with him and that he's acting in good faith.
db0 literally runs one of the major instances, he isn't a bot. Neither is Pug, who is a regular poster on here.