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All the other brands went along
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this post was submitted on 24 Nov 2024
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I hated when mice became the primary interface to computers, and I still do.
tell me you use i3 without telling me you use i3
I agree with OP and I haven't used a tiling WM in years (used XMonad BTW; i3 was okay). I currently use KDE Plasma 6 because it doesn't have many drawbacks (used GNOME until Wayland worked properly on KDE), and I can use it pretty well w/o a mouse.
Is this for real?
Even for like 20 years after mousing became the primary interface, you could still navigate much faster using keyboard shortcuts / accelerator keys. Application designers no longer consider that feature. Now you are obliged to constantly take your fingers off home position, find the mouse, move it 3cm, aim it carefully, click, and move your hand back to home position, an operation taking a couple of seconds or more, when the equivalent keyboard commands could have been issued in a couple hundred milliseconds.
I love how deeply nerdy Lemmy is. I'm a bit of a nerd but I'm not "mice were a mistake" nerd.
I don't think mice were a mistake, but they're worse for most of the tasks I do. I'm a software engineer and I suck at art, so I just need to write, compile, and test code.
There are some things a mouse is way better for:
But for almost everything else, I prefer a keyboard.
And while we're on a tangent, I hate WASD, why shift my fingers over from the normal home row position? It should be ESDF, which feels way more natural...
I always rebind to ESDF if the game doesn't do stupid things preventing it from being practical. The addition of the 1QAZ strip being available to the pinky is a killer feature all on its own. I typically use that for weapon switching, instead of having to stretch up to 1234 and take my fingers off the movement keys.
Tablets are better than mice at drawing, modelling, and photo editing. Mice are good for first person shooters. Game controllers are better for most other games. You can mouse in
dired-modei guess, if you're a casual.Thanks, I got you beat on ESDF though because i'm a RDFG man, since playing counter strike 1.6. With WASD they usually put crouch or something on ctrl but my pinky has a hard time stretching down there, but on RDFG my pinky has easy access to QW AS ZX, and tab caps and shift with a little stretch. It's come in handy when playing games with a lot of keybinds.
Pfff, minutes after trying to minimize your nerdiness, you post this confession.
What pisses me off even more is many games bind to the letter instead of physical key position (e.g. key code), so alternative layouts get a big middle finger. I use Dvorak, and I've quit fighting and just switch to QWERTY for games.
I don't have a problem with hitting control (I guess I have big hands), but I totally agree that default key binds largely suck. I wish games came with a handful of popular ones, and bound to key codes so hs Dvorak users (or international users) didn't have to keep switching to QWERTY.
That feel when you switch languages to chat and the hotkeys don't work
Yup. My SO speaks another language, so we absolutely feel this.
I am using ESDF because my "A" key stopped being as responsive, didn't expect someone to do this on purpose!
It's just more ergonomic. My hands are already there, why shift them? Oh, and use QAZ instead of Tab, Shift, and Ctrl, they're right there.
It's also an age thing. My visual processing is getting worse and worse. My disorientation facing a busy screen with literally thousands of objects that can be interacted with by mouse is a cognitive drain compared to a textual interface where I do most of the work abstractly without having to use visual processing at all. Like reading a book vs watching a movie.
I probably have a lot more experience using pre-mouse era computers than most people. It's like being asked to start using a different language when you are 20. Yeah, you'll become perfectly fluent for a couple decades... but you'll also lose that language first when you get old.
I have noticed that millenials navigate multilayer mouse interfaces (like going down a few chained drop down menus) way faster than I ever did. And zoomers use touch screen keyboards almost as well as I ever touchtyped. Brains are only plastic to a degree, and it just plain feels good to use all those neurons that you first laid down when you were young and your mind was infinite.
I just use a mouse to type in stuff using the on screen keyboard. It's annoying having to take the ball out and clean it, but you get used to it.
I used the logitech optical trackball mouse for quite a few years! Did not play a lot of FPS a that time...
Still use one to control the PC when i'm in bed. =)
I love trackballs (except that Kensington above. It was basically a pinch your skin torture device.) I still use the Logitech M570 trackball. It's pretty good.
My favorite of all time though was the Logitech Trackman Vista. Absolutely perfect form factor that Logitech just gave up on one day and I will never know why.
Hey they made new technology where you can just yell at the computer and it'll understand 60% of what you're saying.
Reminds me of the ancient technology where you just kick it until you get a more tractable problem.
I kept every mouse ball I ever obtained and display them in my china cabinet.
When I'm "computering" for efficiency, I don't take my hands off the keyboard. Half of my job is on a standard keyboard, and so familiarizing myself with all the shortcuts and whatnot saves a lot of time versus having to travel back and forth to a mouse or track pad.
When I am just satisfying the dopamine urges, it's mouse all the way.
That functionality (first necessary, then required by guidelines, then expected, and then still usual) disciplined UI designers to make things doable in a clear sequence of actions.
Now they think any ape can make a UI if it knows the new shiny buzzwords like "material design" or "air" or whatever. And they do! Except humans can't use those UIs.
BTW, about their "air". One can look at ancient UI paradigms, specifically SunView, OpenLook and Motif (I'm currently excited about Sun history again), Windows 3.*, and also Win9x (with WinXP being more or less inside the same paradigm). And one can see that of these only Motif had anything resembling their "air". And Motif is generally considered clunky and less usable than the rest of the mentioned (I personally consider OpenLook the best), but compared to modern UIs even Motif does that "air" part the way it seems to make some sense, and feels less clunky, making me wonder how is that even possible.
FFS, modern UI designers don't even think it's necessary to clearly and consistently separate buttons and links from text.
And also - freedom in Web and UI design has proven to be a mistake. UIs should be native. Web browsers should display pages adaptively (we have such and such blocks of text and such and such links), their appearance should be decided on the client and be native too, except pictures. Gemini is the right way to go for the Web.
Sure, it's not 100% better in all situations. But when you're unfamiliar with something, almost universally, it's far more intuitive.
And this doesn't even take into account things like gaming. I also can't imagine trying to do visual design things solely with the computer. Like any type of drawing or schematic design.
Being pretty adept at using the keyboard, I'm often frustrated when I find out that the only way to do something is by mouse when there appears that there should be an easy way to do it by keyboard. But, man, I can't imagine longing for the days before the mouse.
Yes, the mouse is useful in many situations (esp 3d modeling), so I don't think anyone is arguing that it shouldn't exist.
The problem, however, is that we've standardized on it for everything, to the point where software often ignores a better KB-driven workflow because the mouse one is good enough. "When all you have is a hammer..."
We've prioritized "intuitive" over "efficient." There's nothing wrong with learning to properly use a tool, and it's sad that we don't expect users to put in that modicum of effort. In the 80s and 90s, that's just how things were, you either learn the tools (often with a handbook) or you don't use them. The net result was a populace that didn't need support as much, because they were used to reading the docs. If a component died, the docs would tell you how to diagnose and fix it. These days, those docs just don't exist, so if the solution isn't intuitive, you replace it (both hardware and software).
That's where this frustration comes from. Making things intuitive also means reducing the average person's understanding of their tools, and the mouse is a symptom of that shift.
I would argue, overall, it's more efficient to aim for the former than the latter, especially if we are talking about the wide range of people who need to use a computer.
But I'm curious as to the "actions per minute" type of efficiency that people are talking about here. I'm an engineer, who has moved into computer programming. I would say the bottleneck for me is never that I have to move my hand to my mouse, but it's always about thinking and planning. I feel like this "it's so much more efficient" is viewing us as almost machines that are just trying to output actions, rather than think through and solve problems.
I think this is more of a problem that it went from an extremely niche thing, to something that almost everyone is required to use, rather than a move away from keyboard only. Or, maybe, the rise of the mouse opened the computer to everyone being able to use it, which is why it has become so ubiquitous.
I feel that.
So I see you clearly haven't heard of i3, sway or hyperland ...
Sounds like I'm glad "home row" style typing fell out of favour. It may be the theoretically fastest way to type eventually, but it seems to lead to pretty rigid behaviour. Adapting to new things as they come along and changing your flow to move with them instead of against them is just a much more comfortable way to live. Even if I only type 80% as fast.
I have no idea what you mean by "fell out of favour". Does your keyboard not have pips on F and J? People still touch type. Dunno what to tell you.
You're getting hung up on "home row". You still have to move your hand from the keyboard to the mouse and back. It's the same problem, whether or not you know how to type well and stare at your hands, except now you have to add steps for "look at the screen" and "look back at your hands".
To an extent. Early 90's I could navigate WordPerfect in DOS faster than I've ever been able to work in MS Word, because it was all keyboard even before I learned proper home key 10 finger typing in high school. Technically my first word processor was Wordstar on one of those Osborne "portable" computers with the 5-inch screen when I was a young kid, but Wordperfect was what I did my first real 'word processing' on when I started using it for school projects. So I might just be older in that 'how do you do fellow kids' in this sort of discussion.
To this day, I still prefer mc (Midnight Commander, linux flavored recreation of Norton Commander that does have a Windows port (YMMV on the win port)) to navigate filesystems for non-automated file management.
I've been thoroughly conditioned for mouse use since the mid-late 90s (I call it my Warcraft-Quake era, we still used keyboard only for Doom 1/2 back in the early days), and I feel like it's a crutch when I'm trying to do productive work instead of gaming. When I spend a few days working using remote shells, I definitely notice a speed increase. Then a few days later I lose it all again when I'm back on that mouse cursor flow brain.
This is my main reason for not pining for the days before the mouse: it made gaming 100000x better. I remember when we first started playing quake, a lot of the guys swore by the keyboard only, until I regularly destroyed them with the mouse. . .and they all switched over.
I've also done a lot of graphic design, photo-editing, schematic design, etc. . . and can't imagine having to do that solely with the keyboard (but again, I'm often like "why isn't there a keyboard shortcut for this?").
Also, when it comes to productivity, I guess it depends on what you are doing because usually my big hurdle is not how quickly I can do actions (that is usually more important in video games, tbh), the big hurdle is sitting down and thinking about how to do it correctly.
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