Cross-posted from "every answer is a wrong answer" by @Console_Modder@sh.itjust.works in !fnv@lemmy.world
this post was submitted on 05 May 2025
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Fallout
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RPG means 'role playing game'.
Where you get to decide what role you want your character to play.
Where player choice and creativity, problem solving approach... are as, if not more important than the underlying ruleset and world.
Where your decisions in the world meaningfully change how the story progresses, how the world evolves.
Where you can fail in your mission, even if you don't literally die.
You... do know that the original Fallout was literally built as a DnD like, TTRPG, first, and the devs played multiple rounds of this, with a game/dungeon master and whatnot, to prototype the mechanics and balance that would go into the computer game... right?
That the game itself could beat you, and you would just fail, if you fucked about and didn't discover a solution in time?
I was making a joke. I know what an RPG is. I completed Fallout 1 years ago and really enjoyed it, but never finished 2.
I just don't care that 4 doesn't live up to some RPG standard. It's a game. It's a fun game. If everyone would stop judging it for what it's not, that'd be great. That goes for all games. Hell, all media!
Who cares what it could have been? Who cares what it's history is? Is the game fun? That's all that matters. Instead, we have a bunch of gatekeepers in the fandom who dump on FO4 every chance they get, and it's exhausting.
I agree with the sentiment but not the premise. If you played the older fallouts then it shouldn't be surprising that fallout fans are upset that the game diluted itself to appeal to a wider audience. Nothing wrong with a looter shooter with base building mechanics, just don't slap fallouts name on it when it lost everything that makes a fallout game...fallout.
It had the dark humor and the setting. Retro-futuristic 1950s aesthetic, ruins of America, Pip-Boy, Vault-Tec, SPECIAL system, V.A.T.S, consumerism satire, quirky NPCs, Super Mutants, Ghouls, Power Armor, in-game radio stations with oldies music and DJs, Brotherhood of Steel, etc.
That's what makes a game a Fallout game. If it had none of that, but had intense roleplaying, would it have been a Fallout game?
Think of all the stories the game told. All the minor characters you helped. The depth of the companion quests. The mystery of the synths. I could go on and on about the stories and fun that were had. So I will!
And more and more! It was a huge storytelling game with tons of awesome content. That's what makes it a Fallout game. Not because you can choose to blow up Megaton or whatever. Actually, you could blow up the Brotherhood. Close enough.
All the negatives do nothing to ruin that.
How can you say what a straight face that it "lost everything that makes a fallout game...fallout". Nonsense.
adjusts pink glasses
Mhm, yep, very funny joke.
EDIT:
You don't care if the game lives up to other people's different standards of a what a fun game is, but your represent your own standards of what a fun game is as objective, and then say that because FO4 meets those standards, its fine actually, and also all the other people with other standards should just shut up about them.
...
We could just ditch the entire framing of discussing FO4 as an RPG, and just say sure, it isn't an RPG, its an open world looter shooter with crafting and base building and a story.
Problem there is, for me at least... I don't find the story, the characters, the dialogue, etc, very good, at all.
I don't find the shooting very good, what with the nonsense auto scaling, and unsophisticated combat AI.
Crafting, on its own, is a good subsystem of a game, but when combined with how the rest of the game works, it becomes a very tedious, mandatory chore.
Base building, on its own, is a decent subsystem of a game... but when combined with the rest of how the game works, ... well, its either a chore to get through the bare minimum to advance the plot, the story... or, it isn't comprehensive and well integrated enough into the main design of the game, such that the entire game itself could reach its full potential of meaningfully being a core mechanic of the whole game world and story, as I outlined in my other post.
The uh, I think its called 'Expanded Settlements' mod, or some such? It gets a lot closer to doing that latter thing, though I may be using the wrong name, its been a while since I last played FO4... due to the, you know, lack of fun I was having.
...
In summary... I am happy you find FO4 fun, and I hope you can respect that I don't find it to be fun, and that different people have different standards for fun, and just as its ok for you to like something I don't, its ok for me to not like something you do.
If you don't wanna talk about this topic... maybe don't talk about this topic?
But its kinda bs to just try to say 'actually no one is allowed to criticize this or have a different opinion than me,'... and then also call anyone who disagrees with you a gatekeeper... when that is what you are doing, you are gatekeeping the entire discussion itself.
...
As a final point, FO4 ain't got Caravan.
I should have just led with that, really.
I think this is a bit of a fallacy. While i agree on the premise that if it's a fun game it's fun, where is the line? The fallout series was primarily very story driven for over 20 years. If it doesn't matter, then make it something completely off the wall - fallout 5 - the basketball drama. Life in a post apocalyptic Indiana isn't easy, but what's even more difficult is getting to the championship. Changes to stat scaling include sharpshooting, which improves your 3 point shot. There's potential here.
At some point, you build a reputation and a fan base. I'm glad some people enjoy the game for what it is, but what i want is a new story that made me feel like fallout 2 did. New Vegas was the closest one. Fo4 wasn't it.
It's a standard that the series built for itself.
I made a less flippant reply to someone else that really could have been in reply to you. Fallout 4 is very much story driven:
https://lemmy.world/comment/16911957
Right but unfortunately it took away almost all of the roleplaying aspects and ruined the dialogue. The lead designer even acknowledged that this was the case.
The story itself in fallout has always been pretty good, but the roleplaying, dialogue, and how you got there were what really set games like fallout 2 apart from the competition.
Yes i played fallout 4 so I'm familiar with most if not all of those plot points, but that isn't what I'm criticizing. The story was ok, it was just told poorly. It was the story telling, dialogue, and roleplaying that suffered
Also, charles Barkley shut up and jam gaiden is effectively a fallout-esque RPG basketball game. I could take all of the aspects you said in your linked post and make them background noise to a diamond City basketball tournament. Checks all the boxes, but it feels wrong. This is how i feel about fallout 4.
https://www.pcgamer.com/fallout-4-lead-todd-howard-dialogue-system-didnt-work-as-well/
Don't pre-order games and there's no problem. Fallout 5 can be basketball themed.