this post was submitted on 06 Aug 2025
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There is no such thing as middle class, you're either in the capitalist class or working class.
"There's no such thing as a rectangle, you're either a parallelogram or you're not a parallelogram."
The idea of a middle class has absolutely nothing to do with socialism analysis of class relations; it's simply a measure of quality of life.
A measure of quality of life quite vague and incalculable because as humans we tend to manage money poorly sometimes in our lives.
The idea of a middle class is just capitalist propaganda to get 9-5 workers who earn significantly more than blue collar workers but look like 0 along with other lesser paid jobs when looking at wealth chart that has Billionaires
Yeah, this level of pedantry does no one any good, and just makes one come off as snotty and condescending.
The 'dialogue' in the OP is the same way. 99% of the people who'd say "I'm a capitalist" define it no more specifically as 'I like capitalism', which in turn is typically defined no more specifically than 'supplying what the market wants = profit' by the vast majority of people.
Talking down to people does the opposite of fostering solidarity.
I don't think it's at all pedantic to point out that supporting capitalism doesn't make you a Capitalist. You can't have class consciousness without realizing the distinction.
It would be pedantic if you were pointing out an insignificant distinction. This is not that.
I think it's much more condescending to allow people to remain ignorant than to simply give them the right answer just so you don't offend them if they happen to have fragile ego's. I for one appreciate being corrected about things I am wrong about.
Yes there is ... middle class are the people that believe there is a middle class, without knowing that they are actually working class
There is, but it isn't the liberal middle class that's some arbitrary amount of money you earn as a salary, but petty bourgeois or in other words small business owners.
They're in an unique position where they both own a business and live off of that income but are also forced to work in these businesses alongside their employees due to them not being wealthy enough to fully offload everything about it to the working class.
I read Thomas Pikettys Capital in the 21st Century recently, and it informed me on this topic. I still agree with you that those are the two most important class distinctions, but if I'm speaking with someone who is capable of nuance in the realm of socioeconomics I would give this statistic from that book: The top 1% own 30% of the wealth, the top 10% (which includes the 1%) owns 50% of the wealth, the next 40% (so not including those two prior categories) owns the rest, and the bottom 50% owns nothing. So there is now a patrimonial middle class that serves as a buffer between 'rich' and 'poor', but this statistical analysis doesn't really help with getting people aware of the fact that they are the poor and that they are poor BECAUSE a select few are outrageously wealthy.
It's not either or. If you have a retirement fund then you are also a capitalist.
You bought one of the many lies capitalists sold you
If you own equity in any company then you are part of the owner class. Simple.
You don't get to vote, but you can move your money to funds that do invest.and vote ethically on your behalf.
If that makes you feel better, whatever man. I own a house and don't consider myself part of the "ownership class". I work hourly and my 403b is a joke, I am closer to homeless than wealthy by factors of magnitude.
My main point is that the ownership/worker distinction is not binary. Most people are both (in very different proportions).
But my secondary point is that even the small investor has some (slight) power to influence which is usually not exercised.
Stakeholding is a long way from ownership in any meaningful sense. The "varying proportions" here are all on the coattails of capital from whichever angle you look.
It's only a long way from control of the company.
It's full ownership in terms of receiving a proportional share of the profits of the workers. That part is very meaningful.
That's kind of my point though. Control is real ownership. What we experience can really only be construed to ownership in name. Especially with the way financial systems work, built by capital, the vast majority of individual investors expressly do not own their stake in their names.
A silent partner (through choice or circumstance) is just as much a member of the capitalist class as the hands on partner. They reap the same rewards. They exploit the same workers.
Only in a co-operative setup can the worker and owner class be in balance.
I see where you're coming from and why you're drawing that line. My thought is that so many of those investors are not functioning as capitalists considering that they are still workers at the end of the day. They need to participate because of the way things are, where I suppose my idea of a "true" capitalist simply chooses to exploit in order to claim more. I do think there's a difference between choice and circumstance in that way.
Totally. Most 401k holders don't even realise they own companies, never mind thinking about moving their money into something better fitting their particular political and investment philosophies
Idiot.
I know you are but what am I.
(Seriously, at least give some reasoning otherwise even your typing effort is wasted)