this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2025
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[–] Denjin@feddit.uk 43 points 1 day ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (13 children)

In the last days of WW2, the Japanese military were getting children to make sharpened bamboo spears and training those children to attack American soldiers on sight. The elderly and women were told that they should kill themselves before potentially coming under American control.

The Japanese civilian population had been indoctrinated into the belief that western soldiers were absolute monsters who would carry out unspeakable acts on them should they become prisoners (ironic considering the IJA/Ns actions during the conflict).

In the battle of Saipan, hundreds of mothers leapt from cliffs with their babies in their arms to evade capture, men would slit their children's throats and booby trapped the bodies to injure Americans and then themselves fought relentlessly, before mostly killing themselves or being killed to prevent capture.

The level of blood shed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unprecedented but it did in fact save untold Japanese civilian and American soldiers' lives.

Crucially, even after the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima Japanese High Command still refused to surrender.

*edit: all you 4edgy5me America Bad commenters really need to do some reading about Japanese atrocities during the Pacific War here are some suggestions:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang-Jiangxi_campaign

[–] ZMoney@lemmy.world 1 points 40 minutes ago

I wonder when, if ever, this narrative will finally be laid to rest. Perhaps, as long as the US military exists as a globe-spanning hegemon, we will always have to hear some version of this story.

No contemporary historian or political scientist takes this view for granted. It is one of many, and I encourage you to read about more than the wikipedia articles about Japanese atrocities. All militaries commit attocities. This is not the point.

The argument you offer is that the United States had a moral imperative to invade and occupy the Japanese home islands. What is the justification for this? Why would this have been necessary? Everyone who has seriously studied the history knows that the Soviet Union was preparing to invade Japan and its leadership was preparing to surrender in one form or another. The bombs were dropped because the US wanted to ensure that they were the negotiating party and occupying power.

The justification to avoid further violence is extremely cynical. Nowhere in the rules of war does it say that the only way to end a conflict is to utterly annihilate your oppnent. That rule was invented by expansionist empires. You can go back to the history of Rome's wars with Greece to see this type of logic (or lack thereof) play out. It is a message. It says that we are not your equal and we will not broker any deals on equal footing. We are your hegemon and we will dictate the terms. And then we'll blame you for any atrocities we commit, and everyone will know that we did what we did in the name of peace and justice.

[–] _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago) (2 children)

The Japanese civilian population had been indoctrinated into the belief that western soldiers were absolute monsters who would carry out unspeakable acts on them

We nuked them twice after carrying out a campaign of what we cozily referred to as "moral bombing", where we targeted civilian populations to kill the families of soldiers.

We ARE absolute monsters.

[–] ivanafterall@lemmy.world 5 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

The only fair way to solve this is going to be for someone to nuke us for nuking Japan, then someone needs to nuke whomever nukes us, etc...until everyone gets nuked. Then we can get along.

[–] absentbird@lemmy.world 5 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

I mean Japan and the US have a pretty solid relationship now, it's just internet weirdos who can't get along, which is probably why a lot of us are on the internet in the first place.

[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com -2 points 19 hours ago

I mean Japan and the US have a pretty solid relationship now

Fash support fash.

[–] Guidy@lemmy.world -3 points 21 hours ago (1 children)
[–] _cryptagion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 17 hours ago

If I gave the impression that I was at all interested in entertaining some western imperialists blog opinion on there being alternatives to targeting civilian populations in war then please forgive me, because that was never my intention and I won't consider such barbaric drivel under any circumstances.

[–] lemmyknow@lemmy.today 21 points 1 day ago (7 children)
[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

When the US nuked Japan, almost everyone in my homeland (China) knows what's coming next. It maked the end of a terrible age of war, and era of subjugation by inperialists. The japaneese invaders are soon gonna be gone. It was a huge relief.

Then when the news of japan's surrender hits the news, there was celebrations throughout China. And I'm sure those in Korea and various Southeast Asian countries would also be celebrating that.

It would've taken months and possibly years for the US to do a non-nuclear attack of japan, and that would've allowed them to continue doing massacres across Asia. Civillians shouldn't have to die for the crime of their government, but there were not many options, and this was the lesser evil.

[–] psx_crab@lemmy.zip 14 points 22 hours ago

As someone from the country that's been conquered by japan: absolutely yes.

[–] Denjin@feddit.uk 24 points 1 day ago (3 children)

It's literally the trolley problem writ large. Do you kill a few hundred thousand civilians to prevent the deaths of probably several million.

[–] gmtom@lemmy.world 6 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

But thats dishonest. It assumes that:

  1. The nuking of Japan was the reason they surrendered

  2. The nukes were gauranteed to make then surrender.

Like would it still have been justified if Japan hadnt surrendered? Then youve committed an atrocity for no reason.

Or what about if it was a different atrocity? Would tourturing a few hundred thousand Japanese to death be justified for the same reason?

[–] lmagitem@lemmy.zip 0 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)

Especially since it probably wasn't the reason they surrendered. There are multiple papers on the subject. They didn't really grasp the difference between the atomic bombs and regular bombing, and the US were carpet bombing multiple other cities at the time. They probably surrendered because of the Soviet advance after failed talks with them, which definitely reduced their chances to zero.

[–] KoalaUnknown@lemmy.world 5 points 20 hours ago

I used to think along the lines of this too until I visited the Hiroshima Peace Memorial where they tell you about all the ways the US min-maxed the bomb to kill as many people as possible and did it truly as an experiment.

[–] lemmyknow@lemmy.today 3 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Well, idk much about history and politics and war, so I'm just gonna trust 'Muricans claiming they need to bomb other countries to bring peace to the world

[–] NeilBru@lemmy.world 6 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (3 children)

What part of @Denjin@feddit.uk's statement do you disagree with?

In the last days of WW2, the Japanese military were getting children to make sharpened bamboo spears and training those children to attack American soldiers on sight. The elderly and women were told that they should kill themselves before potentially coming under American control.

The Japanese civilian population had been indoctrinated into the belief that western soldiers were absolute monsters who would carry out unspeakable acts on them should they become prisoners (ironic considering the IJA/Ns actions during the conflict).

In the battle of Saipan, hundreds of mothers leapt from cliffs with their babies in their arms to evade capture, men would slit their children's throats and booby trapped the bodies to injure Americans and then themselves fought relentlessly, before mostly killing themselves or being killed to prevent capture.

The level of blood shed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unprecedented but it did in fact save untold Japanese civilian and American soldiers' lives.

Crucially, even after the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima Japanese High Command still refused to surrender.

The Allies had just fought the Battle of Okinawa, the bloodiest battle of the Pacific Theater.

Have you ever even read any of the history of the proposed plan for the invasion of mainland Japan and the casualty estimates? How about the reasoning for opposing the Imperial Japanese Government?

Or Is this your opportunity to virtue signal to people on the internet by implying Americans are murderous pigs and the jApAnEsE dId NoThInG wRoNg?

[–] Jhex@lemmy.world 2 points 22 hours ago (2 children)

Americans are murderous pigs and the jApAnEsE dId NoThInG wRoNg?

how about: they are both murderous pigs?

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 3 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Just like Ukraine bOmBiNg CiViLiAn TaRgEtS in Russia amirite

Both sides bad I is very smart

(Of course America was bad, but not for bombing Imperial Japan)

[–] absentbird@lemmy.world 6 points 20 hours ago

Arguably fighting against Japan and Germany in WW2 is one of the only times the US used their military in a justifiable way. Fascism had to be stopped.

The Japanese military expected to lose 20 million people in the very first battle of the invasion, and the Americans were considering using poison gas because the casualties of fighting it out in the streets would have been in the millions of troops. People don't realize how dark it was in 1945, food shipments had all but ceased, Japan was entering a famine; if the war had dragged on through a land invasion it would have been cataclysmic.

[–] NeilBru@lemmy.world 2 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Imperial Japan was far more murderous, in the context of the 2nd World War, which is what this thread is about.

[–] Jhex@lemmy.world -1 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

sure, let's dice and slice the context until the USA is always right

[–] NeilBru@lemmy.world 2 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

In the context of WW2, the United States was morally justified to oppose the Imperial Japanese Government.

[–] Jhex@lemmy.world 0 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

to oppose, sure... to drop 2 nuclear bombs on civilians?? hmmm dunno

[–] NeilBru@lemmy.world 2 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

Knowing the necessity for the defeat of the Imperial Japanese government, the burgeoning country-wide famine, combined with the inevitable bloodbath of a mainland invasion, the Allies justified the use of nuclear weapons, the details of which you can read about in the articles I posted above. Nazi Germany and the USSR were also developing their own nuclear weapon systems. A demonstration was deemed necessary.

I personally would not have authorized dropping the bombs on cities. Easy for me to say. But I certainly would have been living the rest of my days in despair at the mindless slaughter and ritual mass-suicide that would've ensued during the invasion of mainland Japan.

I don't envy the choices the Allies had to make while combatting Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Imperial Japan.

[–] Jhex@lemmy.world 0 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

as opposed to just embargo the island now that all the axis had fallen?

no, America wanted the show of force

[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 0 points 10 hours ago (1 children)

embargo is cowardly and it amount to practically doing nothing. There are people being murdered by the japanese military on my homeland. Both the CCP and KMT supported the US actions during WW2 regarding japan.

[–] Jhex@lemmy.world -1 points 8 hours ago

embargo is cowardly

of course, killing civilians is manly

[–] lemmyknow@lemmy.today -2 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

As I said, I don't know much about history, politics, and war.

[–] NeilBru@lemmy.world 2 points 19 hours ago
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[–] Guidy@lemmy.world 4 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

What a lazy and shitty comment.

[–] lemmyknow@lemmy.today -2 points 20 hours ago

You're right. I do sometimes put more effort into my comments, but this one was not one of those. I simply chose to inform of my lack of knowledge in the probably important fields needed to understand this event, and then said I'd trust 'Muricans speaking, pointing out the claim that the bombing was needed for peace

[–] NeilBru@lemmy.world 4 points 19 hours ago

Im context, against the Imperial Japanese Government, unfortunately, yes.

[–] GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago

more like least path of resistance to peace.

[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 19 hours ago

Yes, when you grow up deep inside the imperial bubble.

[–] Guidy@lemmy.world 0 points 21 hours ago (2 children)

Bombing Japan == horrific but better than the alternatives we had.

Though even then there were variables.

https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2015/08/03/were-there-alternatives-to-the-atomic-bombings/

[–] gmtom@lemmy.world 3 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

The alternative of having to let the soviets get a say in what happens to Japan?

[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

It's alot easier for them to post a link to a blog than to just say the quiet part out loud.

[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 19 hours ago

Sorry, but repeatedly posting a link to some blog doesn't justify murdering hundreds of thousands, probably millions, of people.

[–] ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 3 points 21 hours ago

Crucially, even after the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima Japanese High Command still refused to surrender.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were very much the first stages of the Cold War pivot as the USSR declared war on Japan and took Manchuria and Korea from Japanese occupation.

Imperial Japan had hoped the USSR would arbitrate peace with the Allies as they had not fought or invaded, but the Soviets chose to declare war, sealing their fate.

[–] ano_ba_to@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 day ago

Those Palestinian children were going to be used to populate the schools and hospitals so they can't be bombed. Better starve them.

[–] kautau@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Yeah and as we do, we fucked up their transition to a democratic state but in the process created a very unique nation

https://youtu.be/YzRWPGSaKDk

[–] hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone -2 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

There are absolutely zero circumistances under which it is acceptable to bomb, let alone nuke, civilians.

[–] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 1 points 10 hours ago

So the US should've just allowed imperial japan to continue massacring my compatriots in China? Fuck that. Its sad that civillians had to get caught up in the death tolls, but I'm on the side of the US and the allies when it comes to WW2.

[–] Denjin@feddit.uk 3 points 15 hours ago
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