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this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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No. They don't.
Perhaps you can offer a single example of the other side's multi layered propaganda?
Lemmygrad is an example of evil CPC propaganda, checkmate tankies
How about the influences they take to muslims houses so they can film them dancing in a very natural and not forced way to show everyone that's they treat ugihurs fine and there's definitely no genocide.
You know someone's mind is gone when the mainstream western media even has to heavily backtrack and drop a narrative but people online keep parroting it forever. If there was any actual hard evidence of serious, ongoing mistreatment much less genocide of anyone in China and the US could prove it literally CNN, MSNBC, and Fox would be running pictures of Xi with Holocaust victims in the background 24/7. They ran with a story based on a few accounts which turned out to be... dubious... did a couple follows up that amounted to "what is genocide, anyway?" And we haven't heard shit since. Again, this is in China. Do not doubt for half a fucking second that the CIA, DoD, and every private organization isn't foaming with erect cocks at the idea of proving wrongdoing there. The fact that it was apparently dropped by all mainstream media either says they're in collusion with the US state dept/media (which would require some sort of Illuminati level conspiracy thinking) or... the initial reports were largely discredited as overblown and exaggerated. But it doesn't matter because once you scream GENOCIDE you can publish 1000 retractions and still get your comment posted everyday, living in pure ignorance.
There's also a bunch of other additional multipliers of suspicious and/or ironic shit: whenever you read Uyghurs in China just replace it with black people in the US. I know liberals like to yell about "whataboutism" to distract from the fact that a country that arbitrarily imprisons and legally murders black people daily, still, in 2023 is criticizing any other country for accusations of, essentially, modern day slavery. A lot of it boils down to people getting arrested or forcefully detained and then forced to work... kinda like the US does to its prison population. Remember when California sent in prisoner-firefighters? "Hey want 30 days off your life sentence? Go fly in this helicopter over a wildfire and toss water on it! Good luck, buddy!" Maybe you can spend your outrage energy where you can make a difference... if you're in the US anyway.
The US has lied about every single one of its "enemies" except, pretty much, the axis in WWII. Well, they did lie for the Nazi and imperial Japanese but it was more of a helpful lie... a lie of omission because those right wingers benefited the US post-war against the new frenemy the USSR.
From the legacy of the DPRK(North Korea), the Chinese civil war, the Russian revolution, Cuba, Vietnam, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt... literally the list includes basically the entire world minus the "western" ones. They've just been lying and lying and lying so why the fuuuuuuck would you or anyone believe US state dept now? Did they suddenly renounce their warhawk rhetoric of even just a couple presidents ago that led to two illegal invasions of countries the US supported right wing terrorists in and then later used as an excuse for war? Did they imprison a bunch of warmongering "journalists" and basically the entire Clinton/Bush cabinets? No? So they haven't changed. And they shouldn't be trusted. This shit is all Saddam and aluminum tubes and yellow cake all over again. As someone who was an older teen at the time, I find it hard to believe anyone is falling for the same exact bullshit again but turned on China this time. I've come to accept that my countrymen are mostly morons and racists all too happy to jump on the hate train at the first suggestion that it's ok to do openly. I'm sure all these Americans that wanted to "glass" Iraq and Afghanistan only 15-20 years ago absolutely totally give a single shit about Muslim populations in China. Please just fuck off with this bullshit. It's tired and boring.
Man, I wish crackers cared about us as much as they pretend to about these fake genocides they like to cry wolf about to maintain global hegemon. At this point, if a foreign nation actually WAS committing a genocide and Amerika was the first ones to start complaining about it, I wouldn't fucking believe them anymore. All the crackers know is how to lie on the folk that's outperforming them, and that's facts
Why do you guys even go to bat for China so hard? They're not even communist? They are state capitalists and more right wing and authoritarian than the US republican party (other than on green energy)?
So I really don't understand why you people are so desperate to defend them, not just on this, but on everything. It makes no sense to me.
Because they aren't. You are being lied to. If you want to understand us I recommend reading "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics: A Guide for Foreigners" by Robert Boer.
Okay I've just wasted about 30 minutes of my life reading someone unironically defend "Democratic dictatorships" with nothing substantial, just empty rhetoric and blind praise. And happily pushes the most abhorrent and blatant totalitarian propaganda such as
Like yes, we're a democracy for the people (the people are the partisans that agree with me, democracy is not for anyone else )
Only for the author to barely even touch on the issue of China not actually being communist.
Is pretty much all he says in regards to the economics of China, so he doesn't even say he agrees with one side or another and even if he did the other side is "well China isn't 100% capitalist" not "China is socialist"
Like I'm sure you'll claim I just didn't understand what was really being said or how a totalitarian leader that openly arrests anyone that challenges him politically is actually Democratic, just a different kind of special Chinese democracy. Or whatever. But all you've done by getting me to read this is to hats China more.
I'm sorry but you're not very smart. You just don't know what the words you are using actually mean
Yeah I figured you lot would give a dismissive response like this. It's the standard dumbass talkie tactic after quoting some tangentially related political literature that is just blatsnt propaganda, in the hopes your opponent is too lazy to read it, but they actually do and can call you out on your bullshit.
It's scary how similar you guys are to the alt right.
😂 waah muh horseshoe theory 🤓 waah
Read Karl Marx read Lenin you wannabe intellectual. And if you're too lazy then watch a vid by Hakim. It's not our job to lecture you. You're not special. If you don't want to learn then you will be made fun accordingly.
Not even saying horseshoe theory really. Just you use the same tactics to push your bullshit.
I have read marx and Lenin, and Trotsky, Engels, even Mao. I'm an active member of my cities socialist community, we read a lot of communist literature when we're not campaigning or protesting.
Supporting dictators that are awful people that don't care about any sort of equality or betterment of the proletariat and run countries with capitalist systems (I know you lot say you believe in scc, but I fully believe everyone knows that's bullshit.) Doesn't make you a communist, it makes you a cunt.
Now if I were to get into hotshot theory I would be comparing the awful things China does with the things fascist states do and asking you what the difference is? Like if Mussolini had just called it "socialism with Italian Charecteristics" would you be fawning over him like you do for Xi?
Why ask a question when you can't be bothered with engaging in the answer?
If you feel the need to actually learn something in the future take a look at genzhou here on the grad. Otherwise please don't waste anyone elses time.
Bro what? I asked a question, he said "you're wrong, read this paper" and I read the paper. How is that me not being bothered with engaging the answer?
I read the paper and it just didn't address the thing I was talking about at all. All it was trying to do is justify China's totalitarian government as "centralised democracy" and blow roses up Mao's arsehole. It didn't show that China isn't state capitalist at all. So what do you want me to engage with?
I recommended a 300 pages long book not a paper. You said you spend 30 minutes with it. That's not enough to even skim it.
I read "socialism with Chinese characteristics: a guide for foreigners" by Roland Boer.
That's what you told to me read. If its not the same one? Well really I don't care because I'm not going to spend £100 on blatant propaganda thar just jerks off Mao for 300 pages. Which is what you want isn't it? So you can dismiss my opinion and feel like you've "won" because I didn't read your obscure propaganda book. It's a pretty standard tankie strategy after all.
Yes exactly. I want you to read the forbidden tomes so you will fall to the ruinous powers of communism.
I'm already a communist. I'm just not dirty tankie scum.
You are not a communist then. Just a liberal who read the communist manifesto once.
Lmao sure. So voting for thr communist party, campaigning for socialist policies, and being part of communist activist groups doesn't make me a communist?
But being a chronically online loser that simps for capitalist dictators in Russia and China, makes someone an actual communist? 🤡
You are really desperately trying to get a rise out of me, aren't you? It's not gonna work.
And who are you calling chronically online? My account made around 230 comments and 16 posts in a span of a year. Your account has made 280 comments in the span of TWO MONTHS. 🪞
Wrong and you do not even know what these terms mean.
I bet this was part of the plan..."we can't technically post this on our official news sources, but let the narrative run wild and grow more deranged every passing day and it will naturally become part of the cultural zeitgeist." It's genius, America is helping their citizens program themselves. It's crazy how quickly it went from an alleged cultural genocide to liberals telling me "tell that to the pile of dead Uighurs." Why expose yourself to retaliation for lying on news media when you can just plant a seed and let the average batshit insane racist Westerner make up whatever their wicked hearts desire?
Indeed.
Unfortunately this general line of thinking has been co-opted by right wingers (Trump types, to be super clear) and thus liberals, as always, have cornered themselves harder into NEVER DOUBT THE MEDIA NEVER DOUBT THE STATE DEPT STOP DEFENDING TRUMP type no-thinking logical black pits.
And just to explain further if it isn't clear, I'm referring to how Trump, et al. basically say the media will state something "Trump did X!" then they retract the story or edit it with a small disclaimer noting the original but the retraction is rarely (never) read. It's a way of basically defaming without having real legal liability since, technically, you can say you made a mistake and you did your due diligence by retracting later with a correction. This shit absolutely happens, it's one of those things Trump was really good at needling in on because it harms ("harms") people like himself but normal people, who won't experience personal effects of this usually, can still see it happening and they know it happens but if you question it a little liberals get flustered and if you say it's fucked up that the media clearly does this then the liberals denounce you very quickly as anti rainbows and pro hellfire or whatever. And clearly, if it isn't somehow clear, Trump is a demon. But it doesn't mean all of his criticisms of liberals are wrong. Many are objectively true and that's very much so a reason why people love him and say he "tells it like it is" because on a select few issues, he does.
Once again I find myself infinitely frustrated at how much liberals will cling to the institutions which betray them. The selfish fuckers.
It's not a matter of mass killings, but it's an intentional effort to reduce the ugihur population, which does make it a genocide.
And this isn't even "WeStErN pRoPaGaNdA" its stated in China's own policy on "population optimisation"
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02634937.2021.1946483
I know this will fall on deaf ears, but I'm curious what kind of "logic" you'll use to claim it isn't real or is just propaganda or America is worse so China does nothing wrong.
I will have you know I actually clicked this link prepared to read it in good faith, although I admitted I assumed I would have some tangential knowledge that would paint a clearer picture in favor of China.
And then I discovered IMMEDIATELY that was the case!
This is written by Adrian Zenz.
Adrian Zenz is an American fascist with ties to the CIA who claims he was sent by God to destroy homosexuals and communist China. I would hope that fact alone would assassinate his character a bit and make you question if he is telling the truth. He is indeed the very focal point of where the entire Xinjiang myth began.
As you can see, he thanks his four ANONYMOUS contributers and the Victims of Communism memorial organization. It is a very common CIA tactic to make up a few conveniently untraceable "anonymous sources" to say quite literally anything they like with an air of authority and expertise. That, and the "Victims of Communism" is an organization with many capitalist and fascist ties that has collaborated with Neo-Nazi groups in order to spread lies about any socialist country they can run their mouth about.
Should we really trust what a bunch of CIA spooks and fascists have to say about a socialist country?
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By contrast, here is just a taste of the counter narrative:
spoiler
China essentially said, after the Western slander, to the entire world: if you feel there is anything amiss about what we are doing in Xinjiang, please, send diplomats unannounced to Xinjiang and inspect for yourself; we have nothing to hide. (More on this at the end)
So, what ARE they doing in Xinjiang?
In short: fascist deradicalization and economic development, which ultimately just aids the fascist deradicalization goal.
You see, America has spent decades trying to destroy China. One small example of this, is they sent Islamist extremists associated with the Taliban up northeast into Xinjiang to spread their fascist ideology. It worked, and Xinjiang was quickly overcome with fascist terrorism.
The usual gameplan the West has adhered to when dealing with unwanted Islamofascist terrorists is simple: bomb them into oblivion, damned be any civilians in the crossfire.
Instead, China has detained them, and put them in re-education and vocational training facilities. They teach men they don't have to commit jihad to please Allah, they teach women they aren't merely child-bearers. Islam itself retains its strength; there are hundreds more mosques in the Xinjiang province than before this American-borne fiasco started. Uighur culture is celebrated, not suppressed; only Taliban-borne "culture" that has been in Xinjiang a mere decade or less is a target of suppression.
They are given vocational training as part of an effort to economically uplift them. The most susceptible to fascism are those who are desperate. China took some responsibility, and admitted that Xinjiang was very undeveloped and isolated from the rest of China. They have sought only to fix this divide and to give future Uighurs a chance to prosper, so that such extremism is of no interest to them.
So...
What about the open invitation to check out the Xinjiang re-education facilities?
Well, absolutely zero Western countries took them up on the offer. None! Nobody, no brave journalists from the West dared to inspect the stories they were peddling.
You know who DID send emissaries? Almost every single Muslim-majority country on the Earth (many of whom have been victimized by the West and the West alone this last century, but I digress). And do you know what they said? They unanimously congratulated China on their compassionate handling of the situation.
I'm sorry my friend, but you've been lied to.
Adrian is German actually. But yeah, good point, anyone associated with the victims of communism institute can't be trusted.
But there is still plenty of evidence to. Like even the stuff China openly admits, that's they have giant Internet camps where people of a specific religion are detained without trial to be "re-educated" is already pretty horrific. And China doesn't even deny that part.
And do you really think China would let foreign diplomats just waltz into the country unannounced to do a surprise inspection of one of those facilities, without being guided to see what they want to be seen? Like if America did something similar would you take it face value? No right, so all I ask is you apply the same skepticism you would rightly apply to the US to China as well. And to nations like Iran that are more than corrupt enough to give China their stamp of approval in exchange for some financing. Like they are perfectly fine murdering their own citizens for simple protestest, but you expect them to be bleeding hearts when China treats its Muslims poorly?
We are all lied to every day, I try to see through it as best I can, but clearly not always, but I don't assume because one "side" is lying to me that the other is telling the truth.
Sorry I didn't realise what instance this was. But as a side note, holy Jesus fuck people weren't exaggerating when they talked about this place. Like I'm a card carrying communist and regularly have to correct people when they parrot obvious capitalist propaganda about communist nations ("communism has killed eleventh billion people" kinda stuff) but you guys are fucking nuts and really just come off as brainwashed zealots. Like even if you're 100% right (which I really don't think you are based on all available evidence) you're not convincing anyone with this smug bullshit other than yourselves. Especially when all you can manage to say is "no China not bad, because US bad" like yes, we all know the US is bad, but trying to use that to mean China is actually okay (as if everything wrong with China is just Anerican propaganda and we don't have obvious facts, testimony from Chinese citizens and photos/video that show China is an awful place that does awful things to its citizens) is really fucking stupid.
This isn't fake WMDs as an excuse to invade we have so many people from across China's conquered territories that give actual evidence of this shit, from Tibet to Hong Kong, no reasonable person can possibly write all that off as "lol America lies". But this isn't an instance for reasonable people. So I expect you'll want to reply with some other wall of text telling me how bad America is and because America is bad(I agree) that means China isn't doing anything wrong. But please just don't, spend your time doing something productive instead.
Not even the UN report called it genocide.
Could things be better? Probably, but shouldn’t Muslim-majority countries be speaking out if there was actual genocide? The fact that they’re defending China instead speaks volumes.
What do you mean "not even the un report"? Like you understand that China is a permanent member of the security Council and one of the most influential (and whiny) members of the organisation. Like would you assume Israel is innocent because the UN havnt called their actions in Palestine a genocide? And there was an independent investigation that did conclude China was commiting genocide by way of forced sterilisation and population control.
Yes they should be if we assume them caring about fellow Muslims is there top, sincere priority, instead of idk securing a better trading relationship with the superpower that funds them instead of bombing them, but if that was a case they would speak out against Iran for what its doing to its citizens after the protests, or any other totalitarian leader of a Muslim country, yet they don't.
Like even if you do deny it being a genocide, there is undeniable evidence that hundreds of thousands of uyghurs have been detained in the "re-education" camps and Iran doesn't care about that either. Do you think they would be equally silent if a western country started to detain all its Muslims?
There is a good article about it here if you care to read western news articles that is
https://thediplomat.com/2018/09/irans-careful-approach-to-chinas-uyghur-crackdown/
When did I say “innocent”? Your allegation is “genocide,” which has a very high standard of proof, because of what that entails.
There’s also a world of difference between remaining silent to keep everyone happy and actively defending China’s policies
Your article straight up says it’s the U.S. making that conclusion…
Okay breaking out the pedantry to avoid answering a question. Standard tankie tactic.
Yes or no question. Do you think Israel is commiting genocide in Palestine? If yes, do you think the fact the UN does not consider it a genocide means that it is defacto not genocide?
Okay? The explanation is still the same. Like you're deadass trying to argue that becausethe ruthless dictator that has put his own citizens to death for wanting basic freedoms is brown nosing their largest trading partner, means there's no genocide happening.
Like there are people in those countries that are vocally anti-china because of the genocide. They're just the ones that aren't on China's payroll.
And you ignore my point about the internment of Muslims being a fact that China does not dent. So why would Muslim leaders not care about that? If not for the fact that they have political reasons to be on China's good side?
I don’t know enough about that conflict to allege genocide. I do think Israel should stop occupying the West Bank and Gaza Strip at the bare minimum though. I think alleging genocide is a very serious matter, as it downplays the Holocaust if alleged to something that isn’t.
I wasn’t talking about the U.S.
I don’t intend to praise any actual atrocities — if the allegations in the UN report are true, those things should be condemned. I don’t remember reading in the UN report about that happening though, so please provide a source.
Maybe they genuinely do believe the “re-education” camps are actually a net positive.
Can tankies go 5 minutes without saying "but the US bad too!" Challenge (impossible)
Like I fucking despise the US and everything they represent, but we're not talking about them.
I brought up the U.S. to ask if you think they’re committing genocide, since they’re actually doing what you’re accusing China of doing, or if genocide only applies to countries you don’t like.
If this is whataboutism, then what do you call bringing up Israel?
No people dancing - proof of evil.
People dancing - more proof of evil.