Modlog: https://sh.itjust.works/modlog/25693?page=1&actionType=All&userId=21053985 , banned by @goat@sh.itjust.works
For context, goat started calling dbzer0 users tankies, and got into a few arguments.
More context:
It started (to my knowledge) with this comment, goat pinged db0 after he downvoted a comment
a note on the uyghurs (click to show
For the record, I believe that the Uyghurs are mistreated by the CCP, and are experiencing cultural erasure and Human Rights abuses, but there's a lack of evidence that it's a genocide specifically (especially since it seems to target the religion, rather than the ethnic group).
Goat banned IndustryStandard, leading to this thread: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52160152/ leading to goat commenting this:
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52160152/21070262
He mentions this:
We constantly encounter bots, spammers, alt accounts, trolls, and doxxers, so I need to be vigilant by regularly checking who’s interfering and from where.
Which I find ironic, since there was some vote manipulation happening, which goat did nothing about (and could be behind), but I'll get to that later.
After some more arguments, goat started calling dbzer0 users tankies, saying that letting tankie users engage on dbzer0 comms means other users are tankies:
He said that it's different for LW (lemmy.world) and SJW (sh.itjust.works, not the other word). He then poster the "Tank Man" picture to !flippanarchy@lemmy.dbzer0.com, as he expected us to retaliate (being tankies, according to him). We did not, in fact, retaliate: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/21089819
He also posted this in tankiejerk: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52268655, https://sh.itjust.works/comment/20733015.
He also may have done vote manipulation, and at the very least allowed it.
Take, for example, this comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/21091723
Per lemvotes, it was downvoted by the following users:
The relevant ones here are:
- zedbite@lemmy.world,
- Alpacaaca@lemmy.cafe,
- chirichiri@sh.itjust.works.
If you look through other comments, they downvoted me and other users near-systemically, while upvoting comments made by goat.
For example, take a look at their (respective) lemvotes profile pages: https://lemvotes.org/user/zedbite@lemmy.world https://lemvotes.org/user/Alpacaaca@lemmy.cafe https://lemvotes.org/user/chirichiri@sh.itjust.works
They have all downvoted exclusively arguments against goat and others, and were made almost at the same time.
After a bit more arguing (I'm not posting the specific comments because it's tedious, and they're easy to see by scrolling through goat's profile.) goat decided to ban all dbzer0 users from meanwhileongrad, I think this comment marks when he decided to do this, but I may be wrong.
note on the post that comment was in reply to
I think this reply (by unruffled) was taken out of context. Unruffled is absolutely not defending what's happening to the Uyghurs, they're saying that a lot of people have a double standard, where they will not hesitate to condemn the Uyghur genocide, but hesitate on the gaza one, especially when the gaza one is more severe and urgent. To quote them directly:
Yes, that's exactly what I was saying but of course they misrepresented it. You know exactly what Americans are like. They couldn't give a shit about the uyghurs, except as a way to China bash and feel superior. I also explicitly said later in the comments I agreed it was a genocide. They're just doin' the usual bad faith takes.
Feel free to quote me lol
Since this goat had been banned from dbzer0 for being hostile:
https://sh.itjust.works/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=63615
for additional context, I made a thread about this exchange on hexbear, documenting the issues with the culture on MoG. Specifically the use of 'degenerate' as a pejorative being a red flag.
TBH I didn’t think goat’s obvious bullshit needed or deserved a response.
Since db0 is math, and math, by definition and practice is both truth and fact, then we have MoL denying fact, as to be expected.
Dbzer0 is a math instance,
Lemmy.ca is a Californian instance,
slrpnk.net is a space themed one,
Lemmy.ml is an instance for the country of Mali.
Guess I'm Ukrainian now.
Який поворот…
Check the instance sidebar
edit nevermind some admin removed my Easter egg, lameee
i wasn't aware, is there a problem with that word? sorry if this is an insensitive question
The term is deeply tied to both eugenics and fascism, Nazis would label modernist art, queer people, Jews, disabled people, and leftists as “degenerate”. There really isn't a reading that's not describing people as subhuman.
Using it assumes there’s a “pure” social body and that some people are contaminants. It's a pretty clear indication that the user is operating from a worldview fundamentally at odds with anyone that values solidarity and liberation.
“degenerates” as a pejorative is almost exclusively used in crypto-fascist and red-brown spaces.
Oh God and I've been using it to talk about people who can't watch a sports game without being in 4 different gambling apps...
oh dear I've been using it as a synonym for scumbag since i was born while railing against using "brainrot" as an insult
It's quite literally a fascists favorite insult, half their deal is railing against "degenerated culture" because kids have iPads instead of 7-6 jobs or reconquering Rome or whatever
Completely ridiculous. A word doesn't belong to alt-right losers just because it becomes popular on 4chan for a bit. I've used "degenerate" and heard it used many times. No need to fence off our language, just so you can have a shallow easy make believe reason to ascribe someone to a hate group.
"Degenerate" implies there's a pure blood line and that mixed breeding literally made it degenerate.
What do you think the word means? "Degeneration" is inherently a conservative concept. It means "used to be good but isn't anymore"
No, the idea of things declining is not a right-wing idea.
Capitalism degenerates into fascism for example.
Yes, if you use a word in a different context it sometimes has a different meaning. But the context on the table is humans, and dehumanization.
Pretty sure 4chan is the capital of alt-right losers.
well even the new definition/common usage includes implications of degeneration, whose meaning we would all know even without learning about Hitler
It's not a nice thing to say, I just don't think it's fascist code speak like the user is implying.
How do you feel about other dogwhistles like "to protect women and girls"?
It came from Nazis, from Hitler and Goebbels. 4chan picked it up because 4chan has a lot of racists & neo-Nazis.
All I'm saying is treating the word as a dog whistle is dumb. It not a code word for "undesirables" or wtv fucked up shit the nazis and 4chan are using it for. Normal people use it with the new agreed upon definition.
Part of me also thinks it's caving into 4chan and the like. It's encouraging their definition even though it hasn't been valid for a few decades already. They don't get to define the word and I won't stop using it because of them essentially.
It's "normal" in the sense that fascist ideology and terminology are normal in a fascist society.
except that's literally the fucking dictionary definition of it
Except it's literally not the fucking dictionary definition.
Per oxford:
noun noun: degenerate; plural noun: degenerates /dəˈjen(ə)rət/
except it literally fucking is.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/degenerate
So the definition in the link you gave does not mention the word undesirable or reference groups of people who the nazis considered undesirable.
Edit: well the Merriam definition is a bit closer to the term, as in its more dehumanizing and harsher. I don't really think it's enough to be equivalent. I also think who you target with the word is really what makes you a nazi, and not just using it.
Dictionary definitions are almost completely useless for historical/social analysis. It's much more accurate to examine etymology and historical usage. The history of this term is very very very clearly fascist especially in USA. The people who commonly use this term are fash-adjacent at best even if they don't realize it.
That's a fair point to make but this user is simply lying about what the definition actually is.
No, it’s about ethics in gaming journalism!
GTFO, sealion. If you’re still defending this hours later, you’re trolling.
People are still responding to me. So yes, I will reply. I dont understand the reference to gaming journalism?
Can't I also say the same thing about you. Why are you responding hours later, are you trolling right now?
And although you might have a point with not wanting to have dehumanizing language in the community, it doesn't mean he isn't wrong with his dictionary definition.
If you learn a word is used by Nazis and continue to use it, I'm going to assume you like using the word Nazis uses.
Simple as.
Like I’m going to give grown-ass adults on a pseudonymous social media platform the benefit of the doubt ten years after Gamergate.
That’s the old, pre-fascist, pre-eugenicist definition, not a new one, and no, we don’t use it, because we haven’t been living under a rock for the last ninety years. We know what a dog whistle is.
Languages evolve I guess. I know blink 182 had a song named "degenerate". If I enter the word in chosic, I get 7000 hits (songs with the word in the lyrics). I find the expression "degenerate gambler" is kind of common? Idk.
Just trying to show that the word is common and lost it's ties to nazis and fascists a long time ago. Just a regular but harsh insult imo, but wtv.
https://www.dangerousspeech.org/libraries/dangerous-metaphors-how-dehumanizing-rhetoric-works
The reason we’re so hard-ass about dehumanizing terms and other dog whistles on Lemmy is because we know how online fora become Nazi bars like 4chan. We remember and learned from GamerGate. The whole BreadTube phenomenon was formed around countering “alt-right” influencers in online spaces.
Hey, dipshit: you're wrong and the slightest bit of research would have shown that, get the fuck over it and stop using the language of bigots. Gonna cry about "welfare queens" getting called racism next or what?
Lmao
self report
If you're referring to other people as subhuman people are going to come to conclusions about your worldview.
Sorry but you are just out of touch. Its a normal word used by the population at large. Thinking using the word "degenerate" means being a crypto fascist is top tier silly.
Try as hard as you might to lump me in with them because of the use of a common word (lol), I will never be any kind of fascist.
I actually think the short form "degen" is popular amongst the younger generations.
In any caze, it's asinine behavior. It's weak. You're basically just looking for the easiest way to write someone off, like above. Instead of actually thinking about what I was saying, you just gave a trite remark. You protect yourself by turning everyone you disagree with into another fascist that can't possibly have a point.
If you’re referring to other people as subhuman then people are going to come to conclusions about your worldview.
The post here is about the goat (and associated clowns) that specialize in turning everyone they disagree with into a 'tankie' that can't possibly have a point.
Actual definition of degenerate when referring to a person:
"an immoral or corrupt person."
Yes, the behavior is dumb in both cases. I'd argue what you are doing is worse since your decision hinges on non sensical surface analysis of the persons vocabulary.
I've also been called a tankie and I hate the liberal use of the word. It kind of shows just how off base your assumptions are.
It's fascinating that you accuse me of a surface analysis and yet the point isn't the surface meaning of the word, but the subtext.
When I get called a 'degenerate tankie roach' on meanwhileongrad I absolutely read dehumanization in the subtext. But maybe that's just my depraved lack of morals at work again.
The word can be dehumanizing but it doesn't make the person a fascist like said above. My point is that the word simply isn't only used in those spaces and broad judgements based on it serve no one.
I didn't mean to be insulting, I just called it surface level because it breaks apart on a simple statement like this:
"Elon Musk is degenerate scum"
The rest of the answer depends on usage statistics for the word, which we don't really have. Anecdotally, I use the word and I'm not a fascist as far as I can tell.
I don’t think using degenerate automatically makes someone a fascist. It's a red flag.
The reason it’s a red flag isn’t the insult itself, it’s the framework it imports. Degenerate has a history as a fascist/eugenic label for people marked “impure” or “subhuman,” and that baggage is still around today, like it or not.
Here's a similar example; jokes/insults that punch down unintentionally. Like when people portray Trump, Putin, or Musk as gay or in drag to mock them, the intent may be 'turnabout is fair play vs bigots', however the mechanism is homophobia and transphobia. You don’t have to be a bigot to reproduce bigoted language, but it still reinforces a reactionary framing.
Going back to degenerate: you don’t have to be fash to use it, but it smuggles in their worldview. As anarchists/communists, we’ve got plenty of ways to critique the world around us without borrowing purity politics from the right.
🤦 If you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.