I see people say this all the time but it makes no sense. I pay taxes on revenue and so do you. We don’t get to deduct all our expenses from our salaries right?

Personal Income tax is not the same as taxes that businesses pay. You can make tax deductions too, and you can do salary sacrificing and many other things to reduce your income tax as well.

If you made companies pay tax on revenue, pretty much every company in the entire world would close instantly.

Yea so?

So you think franchises shouldn't exist?

Companies exist in countries where these types of things are not permitted.

Example please? Which companies in which countries are doing tax things that aren't permitted?

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Personal Income tax is not the same as taxes that businesses pay.

I know. That's what I said. We pay taxes on revenue and business pay taxes on profits. They get to deduct all their expenses and we don't.

You can make tax deductions too, and you can do salary sacrificing and many other things to reduce your income tax as well.

I can make some deductions but I can't deduct all my expenses like a business does. If I was to deduct all my expenses like a business does I would indeed reduce my income taxes drastically.

If you made companies pay tax on revenue, pretty much every company in the entire world would close instantly.

Again if this is true why isn't every person in the world bankrupt because they pay taxes on revenue?

So you think franchises shouldn’t exist?

Wouldn't bother me at all.

Example please? Which companies in which countries are doing tax things that aren’t permitted?

I don't understand why you decided to be so dishonest all of a sudden. Why did you go to "doing tax things". When did I say there were countries where businesses didn't "do tax things"?

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Your income is not revenue.

Businesses only get to deduct business related expenses, the same way you and I get to deduct income-earning related expenses.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Why isn't my income revenue?

Businesses only get to deduct business related expenses

What other kinds of expenses does a business have?

the same way you and I get to deduct income-earning related expenses.

like what? I can't deduct my costs associated with traveling to work. I can't deduct my clothing I buy for work. I can't deduct my lunch at work. I can't deduct my laptop case or anything like that.

I incur tons of expenses for my work. I can't deduct any of it.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Because definitions…..

You can deduct your laptop case, at least you can in Australia.

Businesses and individuals have different tax laws for good reasons. If businesses had to pay tax as an individual then there would be maybe 10 businesses left in the world. I was going to say that I’m sure you can see how that would be bad, but I’m not sure.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

You can deduct your laptop case, at least you can in Australia.

Really? Do you have any citation for this? If I bought a laptop case so I could put my work laptop in it I could deduct it from my income?

Businesses and individuals have different tax laws for good reasons.

So you say. I disagree.

If businesses had to pay tax as an individual then there would be maybe 10 businesses left in the world.

Again you keep repeating this as if it was some law of nature or something. If that's true then by logical inference there would be only 10 people left in the world who were not bankrupt. How come normal humans can pay tax on revenue and not go bankrupt but a business would?

I was going to say that I’m sure you can see how that would be bad, but I’m not sure.

I just don't believe your outrageous and unsubstantiated assertion.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Yes, really. How old are you btw? Do you have a full time job? Have you ever done a tax return?

Really?

Really.

Do you have any citation door this?

Sure do: https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/income-deductions-offsets-and-records/deductions-you-can-claim/work-related-deductions/tools-computers-and-items-you-use-for-work/bags-and-cases-for-work-items

To claim a deduction for a bag, case or satchel you must:

incur the cost and use the bag or case to carry items for work

need to carry the items for work and the bag or case must be suitable for that purpose

You might want to go see an accountant asap and get them to add some deductions for the last few years ;). You can do that btw - adjust previous years tax returns after they’ve been filed so you can get some money back.

How come normal humans can pay tax on revenue

Revenue != income, first and foremost. Revenue is total earnings from sales of services and products by a business. Income/profit is what a business is left with after expenses (and other things we don’t need to get into) are deducted.

Just think about this super simple example:

You start a business selling PCs that you build out of your home.

In your first week you only buy inventory (case, cpu, mobo, ram, gpu, ssd, etc) to make the pcs when you get an order.
You offer only a single sku for $2000
You get 4 orders and take $8000 in revenue.
You buy the parts to make these 4 PCs, parts list: $75 case, $250 cpu, $100 SSD, $200 RAM, $200 motherboard, $175 PSU, $750 GPU, $50 cables etc. Total per PC: $1800. 4 PCs = $7200. It costs $50 to ship each order, customers pay you for it = $200.

Total costs for first week: $7200 (PC parts) + $200 (shipping) = $7400

Total revenue for first week: $8000 (PCs) + $200 (Shipping) = $8200

Congratulations, you made $800 “profit” in your first week! Seems like a nice little business!

Now let’s work out your taxes using the current business tax laws. Let’s say the business tax rate is 25%.

Deduct your business costs from your revenue to get your profit, then pay tax on the profit: ($8200 - $7400) = $800.00 x 0.25 = $200.00 tax to pay.

Result: you made $600 profit in your pocket this week.

Now let’s work out your taxes using your proposed system of businesses paying tax on revenue.

Revenue of $8200 x 0.25 = $2,050.00 tax to pay.

Result: you owe the tax office $1250 after giving them your $800 that you made in “profit”. The business is unsustainable even though you have a healthy profit margin on all of your items.

Do you see why what you’re saying literally does not make sense?

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yes, really. How old are you btw? Do you have a full time job? Have you ever done a tax return?

I live in New Zealand. We don't do tax returns here. Our taxes are automatically deducted from our salaries.

You might want to go see an accountant asap and get them to add some deductions for the last few years ;).

If I lived in Australia and if I had kept the receipts for every item I bought that I used at work and if the deductions of all those things would make a measurable impact on the taxes I paid I would do that.

Revenue != income, first and foremost. Revenue is total earnings from sales of services and products by a business. Income/profit is what a business is left with after expenses (and other things we don’t need to get into) are deducted.

Revenue is income. Income is not profit. Surely as an adult who has filed taxes you know this.

Do you see why what you’re saying literally does not make sense?

Ok then why can't I deduct all my expenses for living and pay taxes only on the amount left? If a business gets to deduct the equipment they buy then I should be able to deduct all the food and clothes that I but. If a business gets to deduct their utilities I should be able to deduct my utilities. If a business gets to deduct the amount they pay employees and contractors I should be able to deduct any money I pay to tradies.

Why should I be punished for paying taxes on all my income while a business pays only a tiny percent of their income?

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Tax is automatically deducted from our salaries here too, but you still have to lodge a tax return every year. This is where you claim all your deductions from the previous 12 months.

Revenue is income. Income is not profit.

Definitions matter. Google the definitions of revenue and income in regards to businesses.

I should get to deduct utilities

Guess what? You can if the utilities are used for your work, such as working from home.

As for the rest……did you miss the example I just wrote out for you? The one about paying tax on revenue vs profit? Did you see it but you just didn’t understand it?

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Tax is automatically deducted from our salaries here too, but you still have to lodge a tax return every year. This is where you claim all your deductions from the previous 12 months.

We don't do that here typically.

Definitions matter.

I know. That's why I say there is a difference between revenue and profit.

Guess what? You can if the utilities are used for your work, such as working from home.

I need them to live so they are expenses I need for work. Same goes for food, transportation, clothing, shelter etc.

I should be able to deduct all of those expenses from my income.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au -1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

So no one should ever pay any tax is what you’re saying?

You also still haven’t addressed my tax-on-revenue vs tax-on-profit example for businesses either. Could you please do that now, or there’s no point continuing this because you can’t understand why the difference exists.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

So no one should ever pay any tax is what you’re saying?

Again why do you resort to lying? Why are you being so dishonest? Do you think acting in a sleazy dishonest way like this makes you look good or wins arguments?

When did I say nobody should ever pay taxes? Why did you feel compelled to lie like this?

All I am saying is that humans should be given the same affordances as businesses. If I don't eat or drink or have clothes to wear I go out of business. I die. I should be able to deduct every penny I spend on anything that keeps me alive.

Could you please do that now, or there’s no point continuing this because you can’t understand why the difference exists.

It's doubly futile when you continually lie about what I am saying. Shame on you. Stop being such a dishonest sleazeball and have an adult conversation.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I’m no lying- I’m using what you said - that people should be able to deduct all their expenses including food/clothing/transport/housing/etc from their income and only pay tax on their “profit”, which would result in pretty much no one ever paying any tax.

Answer my questions about the example I gave you. Why do you continue to avoid it? Is it because you know you fucked up?

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I’m no lying- I’m using what you said - that people should be able to deduct all their expenses including food/clothing/transport/housing/etc from their income and only pay tax on their “profit”, which would result in pretty much no one ever paying any tax.

No it wouldn't. They would pay taxes on any money left over after all that just like businesses do.

Answer my questions about the example I gave you. Why do you continue to avoid it? Is it because you know you fucked up?

I did answer you. You keep insisting that income is profits which it clearly isn't. Profits is what's left over after you pay all your expenses.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

No, you did not answer my example and questions.

Do you understand why businesses couldn’t pay tax on revenue?

As for income/profits, you’re just getting yourself all confused. When you earn an income from a job, you pay tax on the profit after you’ve deducted your costs. This is what your tax return is - your chance to claim all your costs that you paid in earning that income, thereby reducing the taxable income. You’re just getting confused because the tax is automatically taken out every pay.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Do you understand why businesses couldn’t pay tax on revenue?

In the made up numbers you presented?

When you earn an income from a job, you pay tax on the profit after you’ve deducted your costs

This is a false statement. I do not get to deduct the costs of my food, babysitter, drink, transportation, clothes etc. I should be able to deduct all my costs like a business does. A business gets to deduct ALL their costs. Every single penny.

You’re just getting confused because the tax is automatically taken out every pay.

No I am not. I should be able to deduct every penny I need to survive just like a business does.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au -1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Those are not costs associated with your job, that’s why you can’t deduct them.

A business gets to deduct “all” its costs because all the costs are associated with the business. There are laws around this, and no, not everything can be deducted.

In the made up numbers you presented

Yes, that’s how examples work. Do you think the numbers are “wrong”? The prices and margin that I gave for a PC build are very reasonable and realistic.

Answer my questions from my example. Last chance then you’re blocked as you’re clearly not capable of intelligent debate.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Those are not costs associated with your job, that’s why you can’t deduct them.

They are associated with my job because if I don't have them I can't do my job.

A business gets to deduct “all” its costs because all the costs are associated with the business.

See above. If I don't eat I can't do my job.

Yes, that’s how examples work. Do you think the numbers are “wrong”?

I think your example is silly. There is no reason we can't have the exact same tax structure for businesses as we do for individuals. We could set up tiers etc. If people somehow are able to stay alive despite being taxed on revenue and having no relief whatsoever for their living costs so can businesses.

Answer my questions from my example. Last chance then you’re blocked as you’re clearly not capable of intelligent debate.

Oh my god. Some rando on the internet on a web site ten people use is going to block me because I don't buy into his ideology. Whatever shall I do? I will be so despondent!

I answered your question multiple times. It's just that your zealotry and inability to think outside the box causes you to reject the answer.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au -1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Answer my questions about my example.

You can’t because they prove you wrong.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I answered it multiple times. You just don’t like the answer.

What you are really saying is “agree with me”

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

You didn’t answer it. You didn’t explain how a business can pay tax on revenue without going bankrupt since the tax rate is significantly higher than almost every companies profit margin.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I did answer it. I answered it two ways. One was that we could adjust the rates and tier them like we do for people. The other is that we could keep it the same but give the same benefits to people.

You don't like either answer so you keep lashing out like a child and throwing a tantrum and threatening me with futile useless gestures.

Grow up and act like an adult.

If a business gets to deduct their rent so should I. if a business gets to deduct their utilities so should I. if a business gets to deduct their mortgage so should I. If a business gets to depreciate their equipment and appliances so should I.

It's a simple fucking answer but you just don't like it because you think businesses should be taxed less than you and me.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 0 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Businesses aren’t people. Revenue isn’t personal income.

You’re comparing apples to oranges.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I don't care if businesses are not people. That's not the topic. The topic is why they get to deduct expenses that I am not allowed to deduct.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

And the reasons why they are all explained in my example that you don’t seem to understand.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You said a bunch of things. None of them made any sense.

Try again.

Why shouldn't I be allowed to deduct my utilities and rent just like a business does.

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au -1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Because you’re not a business. None of those are costs associated with your job. If you didn’t have your job you would still be paying for those things.

How do you not understand this? Do unemployed people not need to eat or pay rent?

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Because you’re not a business.

I know. That's not relevant.

None of those are costs associated with your job.

If I don't eat, if I don't have a place to live, if I can't use electricity or water or sewer I can't do my job.

If you didn’t have your job you would still be paying for those things.

If I didn't have a job I wouldn't be paying rent or utilities right?

Do unemployed people not need to eat?

how do they eat? Where do they get the money to eat? Do they pay taxes on that money?

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au -1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

As always, missed the point.

You need to eat and pay rent even when you don’t have a job, therefore they’re not costs related to your income.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You need to eat and pay rent even when you don’t have a job, therefore they’re not costs related to your income.

How do I eat and pay rent if I don't have a job?

That requires money right?

Where do I get that money?

Do I pay taxes on that money?

Do I need to eat and stay alive in order to get that income?

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

This is like talking to a brick wall. If you don’t have a job you still have those costs, so that means those costs are not work related so can’t be claimed as tax deductions.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

This is like talking to a brick wall. If you don’t have a job you still have those costs, so that means those costs are not work related so can’t be claimed as tax deductions

Let's see if I can break it down so that even you can understand it.

If I don't have any income I can't eat and will die.

If I have any income and I spend any of that income on food then any taxes I pay on that income I should be able to deduct the cost of that food because without that food I won't be able to pay taxes because I will be dead.

Any food I eat is absolutely related to any income I get. Without income I have no food and I die. Without food I will die and will not earn (or aquire) income. My ability to get income is 100% dependent on the cost of the food. It's absolutely related.

No food == no income.

got it?

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If I don’t have any income I can’t eat and will die.

Plenty of people don't have any income and can still eat and don't die. This alone proves you wrong.

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Are you talking about children?

How do people buy food without any money?

[–] FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 1 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Do you think everyone lives paycheque to paycheque?

[–] BalpeenHammer@lemmy.nz 1 points 6 hours ago

Most people are in debt so they actually spend more than they make. NZ has amongst the highest personal debt in the world.

But your point is irrelevant.

if you have money to buy food you will need to pay taxes. If you are tapping into savings you are earning interest and that's income. if you are selling things to make ends meet that's income. If you are on the dole then that's income. Hell if people gift you things that may also be counted as income.

The point is no food == no income. If you die of starvation then you will not earn income. Any income you do earn depends 100% on you eating and staying alive.

The fact this simple fact is unable to penetrate your brain shows how much your brain has been calcified by ideology.