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What are your opinions on anti-natalism? (lemmy.ml)

submitted 1 day ago by nutbutter@discuss.tchncs.de to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml

121 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Anti-natalism is the philosophical value judgment that procreation is unethical or unjustifiable. Antinatalists thus argue that humans should abstain from making children. Some antinatalists consider coming into existence to always be a serious harm. Their views are not necessarily limited only to humans but may encompass all sentient creatures, arguing that coming into existence is a serious harm for sentient beings in general. There are various reasons why antinatalists believe human reproduction is problematic. The most common arguments for antinatalism include that life entails inevitable suffering, death is inevitable, and humans are born without their consent. Additionally, although some people may turn out to be happy, this is not guaranteed, so to procreate is to gamble with another person's suffering. WIKIPEDIA

If you think, maybe for a few years, like 10-20 years, no one should make babies, and when things get better, we can continue, then you are not an anti-natalist. Anti-natalists believe that suffering will always be there and no one should be born EVER.

This photo was clicked by a friend, at Linnahall.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 day ago (2 children)

You aren't being realistic. Being pessimistic isn't realism, again you attribute the problems of systems like capitalism and imperialism to humanity, but we know for a fact that tribal societies didn't have such problems, and neither do socialist states as they exist today. You turn hatred of symptoms of capitalism and imperialism to humanity. It's eco-fascism.

[–] dsilverz@calckey.world -5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

@Cowbee@lemmy.ml

While tribal societies were indeed better insofar they were closer to Nature as today's humanity, I can't see a haven in today's world.

I mean, yeah, things can be going better in, say, China, insofar (AFAIK) Chinese people haven't to worry about having a shelter and enough food, because they're not relegated to the whims of capital as we are in the West. I can sort of agree it's the best we can have in terms of social welfare.

But even China is far from detached, for example, from consequences of climate change. We've seen how floods and typhoons and drought have been increasingly hitting the Chinese, because we all exist within the same cosmic boulder called Planet Earth so whatever is done here also affects there and vice-versa.

Even though China is moving more and more to green energy, the way West countries are still "drill baby drill"ing inexorably affects them as well. And also their future, and our future, everyone's future and every future generations upon whom climate consequences will inexorably hit harder (not to say, for example, about the mess waiting to happen above our heads due to ever-increasing amount of satellites, the Kessler Syndrome, which will also affect us down here if things get beyond control up there).

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

A better world is neither easy nor impossible, but merely difficult. Your pessimism takes this to be impossible and just cedes all agency to those who would perpetuate the worst excesses when you yourself acknowledge that countries like the PRC are making massive strides forward. It's better to get organized and try to move towards socialism than it is to say the battle is already lost and we are doomed.

[–] dsilverz@calckey.world -3 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

@Cowbee@lemmy.ml

This reply of mine is probably going to diverge a lot from the main subject, but you suggested that I should "get organized and try to move towards socialism".

Politically speaking, I live in a country (Brazil) where we already have nice relations with PRC and a country that been trying to counteract the Global North through BRICS.

So, to a certain extent, there's some effort in this regard from the current government in the country I was born in, but Brazil is still a marionette of USian interests since USA pulled Brazil to their side during Cold War (1964 Military Coup, orchestrated by USA).

And Brazilians themselves are politically divided, with a significant part of the country advocating for their own economic slavery (far-right). Partly because people are held captive by a system that conceals knowledge from them, making them too busy with the "rat race" alongside the panis et circensis, so they rely in out-of-the-shelf opinions without pondering broader. When I try to talk with those geographically around me trying to wake 'em up, it's as if I was talking in Sumerian or Akkadian, anything but contemporary language.

Then, there's the religious aspect, very strong around here. Brazil is highly christian, while I went to Left-hand Path (highly-personalized syncretic spirituality involving Luciferianism and other esoteric beliefs) a few years ago, quite the opposite... If I couldn't "convince" people back when I was still a christian, it's worse now while I'm literally worshiping their "enemy". Can't really belong to secularists, either, because I got a belief in the supernatural, even though my belief tries to consider scientific facts.

So I doubt I can "get organized". My worldview is very atypical, I'm very atypical. In fact, I'm just nobody. You're likely the second person this week suggesting I got some kind of power when I got none. I can't even have power over myself, let alone over other people (and I don't even want to).

While I do talk and participate in discussions regarding the sociopolitical, philosophical and the mundane sometimes, trying to understand and be understood, trying to share knowledge while also trying to learn, open to what I don't know yet, deep inside I got extensively de-realized and depersonalized, accepting how even the whole cosmos will end someday (Big Freeze / Big Rip / Big Crunch / Big Bounce), and I can't see purpose except beyond existence.

It's not about "ceding agency to those who would perpetuate the worst excesses", it's just that I went too far into staring at the Darkness and seeing how cosmic existence is pointless and fleeting, so deeply that I can't simply "unsee" and/or forget Her stare back at me, so everything became fleeting. It's my inner battle that's already lost, because ain't no battle, no spoon, nothing but the nothingness... And my weirdness before others... And Nature, Moon, Earth and Cosmos as closest manifestations of Her principle.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 23 hours ago

I certainly can empathize with feelings of hopelessness, but I think you can absolutely still organize with others that most closely align to your beliefs and interests, and that organizing can help be a part of forming a new bedrock of optimism for yourself. I don't think desiring the end of humanity is particularly useful for getting positive change.