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this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2023
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I mean, Israel kind of threw the first stone and built the first wall
They came for the civilians, they shot families in their homes, literal children and babies. No stone provoked this.
The Israeli settlers did this first in the forties when they invaded and colonized Palestine, indiscriminate violence was their M.O., so yes the first stone was thrown two generations ago. Not excusing the violence today, but it is not unexpected nor unprecedented by either side of this conflict.
That area has been under conflict for 1,000s of years claiming that it's the Palestinians land is very short sided.
The Bible say so 🤷♂️
how many times has palestine been offered land for peace? Many - In 1948, 1967 and even later there were offers which mentioned connecting palestine and gaza. all the times, palestinians refused it.
Hence why I am under the impression that they are more responsible for this conflict.
This is like somebody moving into your home and then you accept a couple of the bedrooms and one of the bathrooms, believing it to be an appropriate compromise.
You have a pizza.
I take 3/4 of it onto my plate, without asking, as you look on in horror.
I suggest we "compromise" and split it 50/50. After all, your grandad took my grandad's pizza when they were both kids. You owe me.
Someone please explain to me how this is different
To speak less in analogies and just cite history, Palestine was ruled by the Ottoman Empire from the 16th century until 1917. After their defeat in WWI, Britain took control of the region under the British Mandate for Palestine, basically controlling all of the region west of the River Jordan. Up until 1947, approximately 420,000 Jews immigrated to the region where the population was about 600k Jews to 1.2M Arabs in Palestine.
In 1948, Britain left which meant an opportunity for a coalition of Arab states to attempt to take back “what was theirs” 31 years ago. The Jews were able to defend the region and have since been encroaching further and further outside of that area they defended previously.
Before all of this “modern” history, from the 7th century to the 16th, the region was controlled by Islamic states and Christian crusaders (who took the land for themselves, not for the Jews, and even killed a lot of Jews — think hundreds of thousands, if not more — during their occupation).
We can continue to go back in history to Roman rule, Egyptian rule, etc. but how far back in time are we willing to go to, going back to your analogy, determine how much of the pizza you should be entitled to? What of the rest of the world? It’s a good question and I obviously don’t have the answer but I’m also trying to understand as best as I’m able to.
With that being said, none of that history warrants the atrocities being committed by either side. If the two sides could co-exist in a United Israel-Palestine state, that would be the ideal resolution in my mind. Unfortunately, due to the overwhelming religious zeal on one side and a superiority complex on the other, that’s just a pipe dream.
Nothing to add or contribute here just wanted to say thanks for the very thoughtful response.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the question of how far we should go back to work out how the "pizza" should be shared. I don't think there is an answer to that. If you go too far back it's ludicrous and if you think too short term it's totally unfair.
Agree about the solution. Unfortunately it seems like people on both sides want innocents to die instead 🤷♂️
Not really. It’s definitely a bit tough to judge who did the dessert belong to. But historically, there was a point in time when jews were living in that area.
Historically, there was a point in time, is such a slippery slope. We could play that geography game all day.
That's his point claiming it belongs to one group or another over simplifies what's happened in that region.
The pie is big enough, but someone takes another slice every year.
But that time you're talking about all this land was recognized as Palestine. Prior to 1948 no government or country in the planet recognized any Israeli claim to this land.
It has been recognized as palestine for a logn long time (since rome), though state was never present. Palestine as a state never existed and thoughts about creating a palestinian state began after Ww2
I had no idea. Why wouldn’t they take the offers
Thats like asking why Ukrainian wont just accecpt Russians offer for peace. They have their homeland stolen, and then should be happy with a little bit of it after the fact?
I mean that’s a solid point
This is Lemmy, there are quite a lot of American teens who don't know why Ukraine shouldn't do exactly as you say.
They never accepted because it was thier fertile crop land that was being taken from them. It failed to be mentioned that these offers were by the British. The Jews themselves also declined the first to offers.
Bibi was not in power when these offers were made. He wasn't even alive for the first of them.
You're a fucking idiot.
Imagine having 100% of your cropland, 40% of your holy sites and 50% of your homes given to another group because of the mis conception that you are nomadic.
You are also aware that the Jews delined the first 2 offers as well until they were given 80% of the land, right?
It belonged to the British before WW2. After the war, where Israel was created after 6,000,000 Jewish people (among other "undesirable" groups, such as gay people) were summarily executed by the nazis, it fell under immediately attack from all of its neighbors in 1947. Two years after six million were executed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
While it doesn't excuse brutal repression, I don't think they are ever going to back down. Any time they do, everyone seems to execute all of them in pogroms.
In the Bible the Jews took over Canaan. Sorry but the Jews own history says the cannaanites were there first.