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About 100,000 turn out in London for pro-Palestine rally
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 21 Oct 2023
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What is the point of these protests?
The most charitable view:
To show western governments that the population doesn't just blindly side with the Israeli government. A major difference between the two sides who are committing heinous acts, is that one side is a government committing genocide, and the other is a military organization (not the government) which was made in response to being forcibly expelled from their land by that government.
Neither side should be killing innocent civilians, but we should not be collectively taking Israel's side, like is traditionally done.
The least charitable view:
Because people want to get away with yelling Nazi-shit in public.
To say that Israelis aren't the only people needing protection.
Mostly to vent out anti-Semitic frustration in a way that is politically viable
Don't confuse criticism of the Israeli government with anti-semitism. Otherwise you're just saying "Israel can do no wrong, even if they're doing war crimes."
Maybe if terrorists didn't hide behind human shields, Israel would've been accused of far less war crimes. Grabbing a toddler after setting off a bomb and murdering a crowd is basically Hamas' strategy.
Maybe if Israel hadn't been doing everything they could to drive Palestinians from their land for decades they wouldn't have helped grow these terrorist groups that are lashing out at them.
Do we know who actually fired the first shot back in 1948? The UN shat on the Palestinians by giving half their land to Israel, clearly neither side was happy about it, but who shot first? It's been tit for tat ever since, and clearly the Palestinians have come off far worse.
Tit for tat ever since.... with Israel receiving plenty of international support and an Iron Curtain supplied by the US.
It doesn't matter if Mike and Steve have been going at each other since Elementary school. If Mike grows up to be Mike Tyson and Steve grows up to be an accountant, then Mike is the bigger asshole if he keeps coming around to punch Steve in the face, and screams "See? He deserves it! Both Sides!" if Steve gets lucky sucker punch in on occasion.
All I see from you is pro terrorist bullshit. Fuck Hamas and I hope Israel kills every Hamas sack of shit out there. Hamas at this point could do the right thing and surrender, and spare the civilians, but they're too cowardly to do that.
All you see from me is Anti Israeli Government bullshit. When the Israeli government spends decades committing crimes against humanity the end result is not a surprise. When no one listens to the suffering of Palestinians what options are they left with?
I call bullshit, on several fronts with what you said. Decades of crimes against humanity is unsubstantiated. What you call crimes against humanity is likely debatable at best and an outright lie at the worst. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and I agree with the sentiment that "Palestinians" are an invention from the last century. You have people who moved to the area under the Ottoman Empire, and the world decided back in 1947 that Israel shall again be a nation. When you have the despicable acts of the PLO and extremist organizations spring up from what appeared to be peaceful coexistence, this narrative about the light of Palestinians and the "freedom fighters" who cut infants' heads off can go pound sand.
I don't want the innocents harmed either, but I do believe Hamas must be exterminated. If that means flattening a building that they're hiding in and using human shields, so be it. The people who support Hamas are making their bed, and we should not be surprised by the humanitarian crisis going on when the cowardly Hamas militants hide behind innocent families.
Exterminate Hamas, that's my take on it. Don't like it? Too fucking bad, it's going to happen anyway and you can wring your lying hands all you want.
So Israel is an invention from the last century?
If there's a hostage situation and someone on the sidelines is screaming "Shoot the hostages! As long as you kill the criminals!" That person is a fucking monster. (And possibly racist as fuck if those hostages are a minority.)
One that was internationally recognized and awarded sovereignty. Palestine was never a nation, and was agreed to be assimilated into Israel while retaining their culture and identity. It was when coexistence wasn't enough and the insane extremists decided Jews should be eradicated.
You're ignoring several realities about the cowardice of Hamas and the shitty situation they PUT their civilians in. Nobody wants to "shoot the hostage" as you so ignorantly put it. The only monsters here are the people saying anything positive or justifiable about Hamas' actions.
Ah, so the issue you have with Palestine is that it isn't recognized internationally? Then I guess similar to Hong Kong and Taiwan, people need to organize protests to try to get it recognized internationally... oh hey, they original article was about people protesting in support of Palestine (not Hamas), imagine that!
Explain the difference between "Shoot the Hostages to kill the criminal" and "Flatten the building innocent people are in to kill the criminal":
Nobody here is saying anything positive about Hamas. I am just not ignorant of the fact that since 2008 there has been 20 times more Palestinian deaths (6407) than Israeli (308), and a even higher ratio of Palestinian Injuries (152 260) vs Israeli (6307)
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
I challenge you to find a time frame in that data where Israeli deaths/injuries outnumber Palestinians.
Hamas are pieces of shit. Nobody is disputing that. I don't need to come here and argue that Hamas are pieces of shit because everyone agrees.
Can we all agree Hamas is shit? Yes? Okay, moving on:
Israel is 20 times the piece of shit Hamas is because Israel is doing 20 times as much damage. If there are 2 fires burning out of control, and one is 20 times larger than the other, the larger one requires more attention and should be prioritized first.
Yes, Hamas needs to be stopped, but Israel is much higher priority to stop because they are doing a lot more damage to innocent people.
I could point out the Israeli escalations that happened only after the violence started against them, but you'll just keep this going in circles. Downvoted, and ignored. Have a nice life in delusion. I'll be rooting for the IDF to wipe out as much Hamas scum as possible, and you can just accept that you aren't changing minds like you wish you could.
"Every time Hamas kills someone Isreal kills 20 people in response. Why can't you see Israel is the "Good Guys" here and this will clearly stop Hamas?!"
Israel has been treating Palestinians like shit for decades. Surprise surprise that resulted in extremist groups forming.
Both Hamas and Israel are shit, but the important thing to remember is PALESTINIANS ARE NOT HAMAS. Commiting war crimes on Palestinians is unrelated to stopping Hamas.
You can't put political pressure on a terrorist group to stop killing civilians, you can put political pressure on your government to stop supporting a government killing civilians.
Israel needs to stop doing war crimes *and" Hamas needs to be dealt with as a terrorist group.
The UK is not supporting Hamas, so their is no point in protesting their support for Hamas. If you want to fly to Iran and protest their support of Hamas, that would make sense.
"So what's stopping Palestinians from putting pressure on them?"
What would you do if you were the Palestinian in this question. seriously. Hamas is not held an election since 2006 what would you do to put pressure on Hamas while you lived in the Gaza strip?
The answer to your question is lots of stuff is stopping the Palestinians from putting pressure on Hamas.
How is that a dog whistle? Is Palestine not in need of being freed? Israel has been holding people in Gaza down for decades and treating them like they are sub-human. Calling out that behaviour as monstrous is not a "dog whistle", it's directly saying out loud what the problem is.
To start with: not threatening to carpet bomb civilians just because they might get some members of Hamas as well. This one should be obvious.
K, you pointed out a not, how about what you would do? Go and shake Hamas' hand and thank the for all the children they've butchered? Hamas needs exterminated, and I don't see a way to deal with them when they hide behind human shields like the shitstained cowards they are.
Okay, so they bombed gaza. Is Hamas gone now? Problem solved? No? Just dead civilians and further recruitment for Hamas? Damn, if only that was in any way predictable....
I'm not going to deny that antisemitism isn't muddying these waters to some extent. Sadly, that's always the case when Israel comes up.
But with regards to the treatment of Hamas in relation to the Israeli government, one is an ad hoc terrorist organisation, and the other is a functioning democracy with ties to west. Hamas is already considered a terrorist organisation, what more is there to do? I hate to use an Americanism, but they're the "underdog" here. Israel is threatened, yes, but they have unprecedented control of the situation when compared to their aggressors.
PS EDIT not to deny that Israel has historically been an aggressor
The last vote was what almost 20 years ago? Before many of the people in Gaza were even of age, anyway. I'm not going to argue that Hamas doesn't act as a de facto government of Gaza, but it is not remotely on the same level as Israel.
Israel has killed more Palestinians than Hamas has killed Israelis. Punished a population is a war crime. Israel should really know about this
Exactly,
and then HAMAS has to stop proclaiming the destruction of Israel.
Might help is Israel hadn't been proclaiming the destruction of Palestinians for decades. Too late to go back and not do that, but they could stop doing it NOW.
Israel never proclaimed the destruction of Palestinians. Where did you get that?
Right, right, they just proclaimed Palestine doesn't exist:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/no-such-thing-as-palestinian-people-top-israeli-minister-says
If someone claims a culture doesn't exist at all, sure sounds like they want to wipe out that culture to people who understand that it does exist.
(I found this by simply searching "Israel statements on Palestine" and it was the 2nd link. The first link had plenty of examples of Israel's war crimes, but no direct statements from Israel. )
Be aware of not confusing nation state with cultural group or ethnicity. Palestinians are basically Arabs.
The state of Israel never said that they want to wipe out another culture, like the Arabs. It is actually the other way around.
Ah, so a public official making it clear that want to wipe out, say, the USA, would be perfectly acceptable as long as they didn't say they want to wipe out Caucasians?
Well if that isn't the most outlandish illogical leap I've seen in a while...
From the article.
Nothing antisemitic about that. Wouldn't matter what race, religion, ethnicity the apartheid occupiers were.