this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2023
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Former President Barack Obama said a way forward for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is only possible if people acknowledge the “complexity” of the situation.

“If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas that what Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it. And … that the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians is unbearable,” Obama said in an interview on the podcast “Pod Save America.”

The former president’s comments come as the Israeli military focuses its offensive against Hamas in Gaza City and northern parts of the enclave.

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[–] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 50 points 2 years ago (11 children)

Reddit probably rotted my brain, but I'm struggling to determine how this is anything but "everyone sucks here." On this matter, I don't think anyone has been truly in the right in a century. Can anyone provide a convincing argument otherwise?

[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 25 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think he's trying to get around the black and white viewpoints, and bring up the idea that Israel is committing war crimes here, which is outside the Overton window on the subject currently in US politics.

[–] nossaquesapao@lemmy.eco.br 0 points 2 years ago

Exactly. One does not do politics and convince their opposition if they don't use conciliating language.

[–] roboticide@lemmy.world 21 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Nah, you can go through the comments here and find people taking the easy, position here too. "Bombing kids is bad, so Israel is bad, so Palestine must be good, therefore I support Palestine." No nuance, no attempts to look at a more complex situation or consider anything other than the most basic information.

Both sides suck, both sides will happily commit war crimes, and civilians on both sides are getting hurt. One side is getting more hurt than the other, but that's just a difference in capability, not belief.

[–] WhiskyTangoFoxtrot@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago

It's the official policy of many of the most powerful nations of the world that only Palestine sucks here and that Israel can do no wrong and must be supported unconditionally. An "everyone sucks here" position would be much closer to the truth.

[–] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Palestinians and Israelis are overall fine, except when you have to listen to them talk about each other, it's their governments that are so fucked.

This entire conflict is a story of overstepping state entities victimizing innocent civilians on both sides of this war nobody but them and their cronies wanted.

[–] rusticus@lemm.ee 7 points 2 years ago

The victims. They are in the right. But they have no voice. Ironically though, as toxic as social media is, governments can't get by with the same shit that they did 50 years ago (Sauce: US in Central America).

[–] krakenx@lemmy.world 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

Here is a 2 minute video about being able to hold the idea that Hamas and Israel are both in the wrong and civilians are getting hurt on both sides as a result.

https://youtu.be/L0Zb9iUi0JM

[–] PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks 3 points 2 years ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

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[–] HotTakesColdUrine@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago

It's not true that civilians are getting hurt in Gaza because of Hamas. They were already being killed off before the attacks.

[–] HotTakesColdUrine@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

"It's complicated" is a constantly used rhetorical strategy by those in power to put off moral judgement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxC5HhKQ5ks 80 second video. This situation isn't complicated at all.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago

Michael Brooks is missed. Great name btw.

[–] Clbull@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago

I truly do think that Islamophobia and the United States having a lot of historical and economic ties to Israel are why we've allowed this to go on unchecked for decades.

Public opinion is definitely shifting in favor of Palestine though.

[–] PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks 1 points 2 years ago

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

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[–] stoicmaverick@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I think that's basically what he's saying with more words. You're not wrong in this case, but the "everybody sucks here" line is most often used by people who don't actually know the details of what they're talking about, but need to have an opinion on the record. (Other recent example being the Ukraine war situation)

In my opinion, this whole situation is too drunk guys who got in a fight over something stupid. Palestine got knocked out early, and so Israel is being vilified simply for being the one still standing, but now Palestine has got up and kidney punched Israel while it was turned away, and people are rooting for the underdog since they got back up. The problem with this, and the reason that Obama is speaking the way that he is, is because people seem to be forgetting all of the other horrible things that Hamas has done too, because they're currently the crowd favorite.

So yes, everybody sucks here, and I think people are having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that, sometimes in a fight, there isn't actually a 100% good guy. It's just too drunk guys getting in a fight over something stupid.

[–] CosmicCleric@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

the “everybody sucks here” line is most often used by people who don’t actually know the details of what they’re talking about

Agree or disagree with other people's opinions, so be it. But this comment is such a unearned hand waving away of other people's thoughtful comments/opinions made on the subject, and it's not a true representation of what's going on.

[–] zalgotext@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Your analogy assumes some sort of equivalency between the two drunk men, but in reality there's a huge discrepancy of power between Israel and Palestine, one so vast that your analogy comes off as reductive. It's not just "two drunk guys in a fight", it's more like a drunk guy and a child, which the drunk guy has been picking fights with since the child was born, and all of the drunk guy's friends keep helping him beat this child up.

[–] roboticide@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

There's a power discrepancy now, but there wasn't always.

By this analogy, Palestine is a drunk 17 year old, who along with a bunch of 20-something friends jumped one another kid when he just turned 18. Except the 18 year old won the fight and the older pals of the original drunk kid have backed off. Beaten to shit, the 17 year old keeps trying to swing at the 18 year old, who continues just kicking him while he's down and everyone is looking on in horror but unwilling to jump back in the fight.

The fact they went 1 v 8 probably contributes a lot to Israel's absolute unwillingness to not put themselves in a position where they are less powerful.

[–] stoicmaverick@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

I see where your coming from, and I suppose I should clarify: in this case, the reason that I invoke the simile, is that the original reason for ALL this drama, is religion. There is more than enough physical space for them both to live in the region happily, but because this is the Land of Israel that we're talking about, they both claim exclusive right to it, and only one can have it.

Events since this original issue obviously can't go overlooked, but it all stems from this unreasonable unwillingness to share plenty.

[–] AstridWipenaugh@lemmy.world -4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's a tale as old as time. Just like the Hatfields and McCoys. They've hated each other for so long neither side remembers what started it and both sides have a list of grievances longer than they can keep track of and the score can never be settled. It's to the point where there is no right side; both are wrong. You can make arguments that one side is more wrong than the other, but I'm not in favor of a "let the least wrong win" approach. Both sides are objectively wrong and both sides must stop.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago

This is simply not true. Palestinians were copacetic before the British mandate, the Balfour declaration, the declaration of the state of Israel and the Nakba.

[–] bingbong@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago

Thanks. People want to pretend this started a month ago and not understand the history.

[–] Furbag@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

That's basically the rational take here. Israel was attacked and is defending itself, but going far and beyond self defense using the extermination of terrorists as an excuse to commit genocide. Palestinian civilians are caught up in the crossfire and are innocent of any wrongdoing, but the Palestinian government knowingly harbors Hamas within their borders and refuses to cooperate with Israel at every opportunity to create a two state system. Finally, there's Hamas, who are bad guys full stop with no redeeming qualities.

So, Obama's take is pretty solid. Nobody has their hands clean in all of this and everybody sucks, but there are still ways to stop the bloodshed, but those solutions are complicated. Especially when nobody really wants to come to the negotiation table right now. Israeli citizens right now remind me of American citizens in the wake of 9/11 - bloodthirsty and hungry for vengeance at any cost. So long as they remain furious, Netanyahu has a clear political motivation to continue the attacks.

[–] Maggoty@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

This did not start this past October. Israel has been treating Gaza as an open air prison for over a decade. And before that there's all the settler bullshit and decades of war crimes justified by dehumanizing Palestinians.

Of course the Palestinians haven't been peaceful. Neither side has been peaceful since the 1940's.

[–] stevehobbes@lemmy.world -1 points 2 years ago

The government of Gaza is Hamas, elected in 2007.

Israeli civilians have also been caught in the crossfire. You know from the terrorist attack they committed 3 weeks ago that killed 1,400 and then the 200 innocent people they kidnapped and imprisoned as hostages somewhere in Gaza, which is what this is all about?

If Hamas freed the hostages, Israel would have a much harder time conducting this war in the way they are, but you can’t literally kidnap someone’s citizens and expect anything less.

[–] Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works -3 points 2 years ago

Because the truth is that Israel is WAY worse than Palestine. They're openly calling for genocide. Resistance to oppression is good, actually, and so basically whatever Palestine does while still being oppressed is morally fine, while Israel continuing to oppress them is not. Anything anybody says criticizing palestine's reaction to oppression is whataboutism, because they're literally the victims of genocide.