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this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2023
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How 'bout we try it and see - what do we have to lose?
Innocent human lives. (Which the Jsraeli government is of course also carelessly discarding. But that's why I think Sanders' position is the most reasonable. We should definitely demand Israel greatly reduce the military force it's exerting, but a total ceasefire might not be entirely realistic)
We lose "innicent human lives" in a ceasefire attempt? The killing will increase?
Also you really don't need to reiterate a very obvious typo. Ideally the goal here should be to have some form of dialogue that works towards the goal of understanding each other better and increasing knowledge, not ridiculing each other. It's pretty poor form imo.
If I were going to correct what you got wrong when quoting you, I could just swap your post with my own.
Ok, so you're not imterested in sincere dialogue. Have a good day then.
Wouldn't misquoting you be the insincerity?
What's your proposal to reduce civilian casualties more than a ceasefire would? Seems like an impossibility to me.
The question you're asking implies a decrease during the ceasefire which is of course a near certainty however in the time scale of the total conflict it's very possible that the total number of civilian casualties will increase.
Hamas will use the time to move troops, stock defences, replenish supplies and plant IEDs - this will prolong the war and make fighting more difficult resulting in more rockets and bombs and thus more potential civilian life loss.
Decisive victory can often be less brutal than lingering conflict, especially with logistical considerations like in Gaza.
What's the better solution? Continuing to bomb refugee camps and hospitals in an incredibly densely populated area where 45% of the people are children and food, water, power, fuel, and movement have all been stopped doesn't seem great to me.
Imagine a comic strip where the Joker is holding a kid hostage at gunpoint. With his other gun he repeatedly shoots random people on the street. Batman shows up but does nothing, for he doesn't want the boy to die. Bam, another passerby dead. And another. Bam-bam, this time it's a twofer. Then Superman shows up and eye-lasers the Joker cleanly in half along with the kid.
Whose action resulted in fewer deaths?
Pretty poor analogy when superman has propped up the Joker (Hamas) over the pacifist Harley Quinn (PLO) while being pretty open about wanting to genocide Arkham asylum (Palestine) - you think they might have done that to create a pretext for what's currently playing out?, and has operated Arkham as a concentration camp, constantly killing its innocent residents and taking over more of it, blowing up refugee camps, hospitals, apartment blocks, you name it, while eye lasering 20-500x the number of bystanders the Joker is killing (depending on the stats you choose). Superman is also a nuclear power with a modern military and f35s - the Joker has small arms and a paraglider.
So far, Israel has killed over 11,000 people in a population that's 45% kids - statistically, that points to them killing 55 Hamas members and 5,000 children (and plenty more adult civilians). Even if they're 10x more effective than that, it's still 10 dead kids for every dead Hamas member.
Who is the bad guy again? Feel free to look at the kill count over the past few decades of that helps.
Thanks for the non-dismissive reply and for the additional context. Just to clarify, I have only voiced my view on the "avoid killing innocents when others are in danger" situation - I admittedly lack the knowledge regarding the big picture to be able to pass judgement or offer solutions. But it seems the answer to your last question is pretty clear: everybody involved in this situation in any way is bad for some degree.
Which is fair enough, but given what we know about the situation, it's incredibly frustrating that everyone is being called to condemn Hamas when Israel are unequivocally the aggressor here.
But yes - between a jihadi org and the Israeli government, there are no good guys, but I think we're collectively failing to recognise the far greater evil here.
So just wait a few days for Hamas to dig in then do the same?
How are Hamas going to dig in to a more meaningful extent with a few days' respite from Israel's attacks on Palestine? It's not as though the IDF is making so much as a token effort to avoid killing Palestinian children and civilians.
B-but Hamas is a pretty poor excuse for killing thousands of children.
Well not compared to the current situation, but that it would possibly be an increase compared to the most civilian sparing scenario. Obviously the situation should be deescalated to the maximum amount possible, but I don't think it's a realistic scenario to assume that if the current main aggressor (Israel) were to cease military action completely, no more civilian lives would be lost.
What's your proposal to reduce civilian casualties more than a ceasefire would?
Last time ignoring Hamas ended up costing 1033 dead civilians and more than 3000 wounded. And anyone that thinks that Hamas wouldn't do worse war crimes in retaliation if the situations were inverted is deluding themselves.
Peace is not possible while Hamas has any power (the same being true for lots of Israeli organizations but this escalation is entirely on Hamas).
Who is proposing ignoring Hamas? It's a ceasefire - not a new concept, and certainly not one that depends on ignoring the counterparty to that ceasefire.
Israel has been the primary aggressor here for decades, and unless I'm mistaken, has propped up Hamas over the more secular, reasonable PLO tp establish this pretext for the genocide they're now attempting to carry out.
Hamas are murderous jihadis, but they're a product of Israel's hostility and decisions to prop them up. Hamas are armed with small arms and a paraglider, Israel has a nuclear arsenal and F-35s. Depending on the count you use, over the past few decades, Palestinian casualties have outnumbered Israeli casualties between dozens to one and 500:1. The UN has called Israel's management of Palestine an open air concentration camp, and we've seen Israel's response to the Hamas attack has already carelessly killed many more times more people - particularly children than Hamas did - they've shut off food, water, and supplies, they've shut down movement, they've pushed them out of their homes, they've bombed hospitals and refugee camps.
Who is the overwhelming military force that's killing all the innocent civilians here? But yeah - Hamas are escalating this.
You want to defend Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the Nazis, Chinese expansionism, and the US war on terror while you're at it with the monstrous shit takes, my dude?
Ignoring Hamas? You mean actively committing genocide and bombing infrastructure in Gaza made a freedom fighting army stronger? Yo that's crazy. You should tell people about the Jews that tried to resist Hitler. Must have been very violent terrorists according to your logic.
what am I going to put in my pitas now?
I suppose it depends on whether or not you're a member of the IDF leadership - there's plenty of kids (mostly Palestinian) that have been reduced to a paste.