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What's something that feels illegal to know?
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 07 Dec 2023
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You don't understand. Obviously everyone is a product of their environment. But after all of that, if the person wanted and intended to do something because of all of these different dispositions and upbringings and backgrounds, then they have mens rea.
Like I said before, it's purely a finding of fact. Does it mean that there shouldn't be mitigating circumstances? No, there might well be reasons to argue that they were only doing so out of desperation. Nonetheless, they had mens rea.
Recognising that there are all these complicated factors but not taking the time to at least make sense of them is the worst kind of determinism. Sure, there's no free will in your conception. There still needs to be laws and concepts like mens rea still need defining to allow for the protection of "innocents" under the law.
No, I do understand. What I am saying is that the concept of “wanted” does not apply in a framework that’s grounded in modern neuroscience and biology. There’s teleological behaviors, yes, but there no will involved.
Let’s break it down to something simpler. A protozoan (a single cellular animal) will swim towards food and away from poison. It has receptors on its cell surface that, when activated by a series of molecules indicating an increasing gradient of food, there is a cascade from activated cell surface molecules to internal chemical cascades that has a direct causal link that’s as deterministic as what your accelerator does to your car. Cell surface molecules undergo a conformational change which causes the phosphorylation of molecules inside the cell, which ultimately drive the motors that make the protozoan swim in that direction. It’s deterministic.
We no longer think of people with leprosy as being cursed by god because of their sins. This is the same thing.
You're wilfully applying a very stunted concept of "wanted" to a legal system that deals in fact. I'm not saying you don't understand whatever it is you claim to be supporting. What I'm saying you do not understand is the concept of "wanting" and "mens rea" (as it applies in law, but also as it applies under your framework - you've chosen instead to just pretend it's no longer relevant instead of redefining it under your framework - like I said, the laziest kind of science.) And there's really no point in me repeating what I've said before.
Maybe what I'll leave you with is a possible definition of "want" under your system, which is one step further in thought than it seems you've ever gone: an action is wanted if the action would have been taken with no immediate or overt external (needs to be defined) motivation. This means if they were abused as a kid and later this translated into abusing other people, they still wanted to abuse them.
(As a note, I'm not saying this is the correct definition, but this is what is needed for people to start discussing what should and shouldn't be in this definition.)
Saying "nobody can want to do anything because determinism" is an incredibly lazy determinism because it's starting with the axiom and then not bothering to come up with a proper framework to explain everything else in the world. If you continue to protest it not being lazy there's really nothing else we have to talk about.
I will welcome any input that has a basis in biology, physics, or neuroscience. I think you’re taking the position that the conclusions you see as implied by a statement of physical and physiological fact as backed from every field from neuroimaging to developmental biology leaves us in a position that’s philosophically incompatible with the world as envisioned by the way we’ve currently constructed the law. Honestly, I would consider that to be the intellectually lazy position as it’s a rote defense of the status quo without making an attempt to address the actual argument.
The law already recognizes that there are circumstances that are outside the control of the individual, and that our concept of justice demands that those conditions are exculpatory. I’m arguing that our present day understanding means that we need to increase the scope of that interpretation, and that criminal problems should be reimagined as medical problems with evidence-based treatment regimes.