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this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2023
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I think public executions where the prisoner is tortured to death are more progressive than supposed "humane" methods.
Not because I like cruelty or think they deserve it, but I want the State to do it's killing out in the open where citizens are exposed to what's happening in their name. Hiding the act behind closed doors and beneath a cloak of "humane" methods allows the State to exercise ultimate authority in secret from the people from whom that authority is derived. It's the State and the supporters of the death penalty that are being spared pain.
Yes, I got this from Foucault.
You highly overestimate the amount of compassion the average person has. If you torture people to death in public people will sell tickets for the best seats. The Romans built a whole damn arena for this purpose.
If anything, I think it would normalize killing (even more). But I guess I get where OP is coming from: Governments shouldn't get away with killing a human by claiming it's a humane act.
Yes! you're correct. It will be spectacle and celebration. We may revel in our cruelty, but we cannot feign mercy.
The question of capital punishment comes into focus. I don't trust in compassion; I'm advocating for honesty.
I can’t tell if you’re joking or if you think people have the same morals as someone from the roman history
Have you seen the state of the world lately? I'm surprised we don't have the football stadiums converted once a year for this
The Saudis do
The job of corporations and media and politics is to divide people. And even more so it will make you think your neighbor is a savage. It keeps people alone and independent workers to exploit. When in reality, your neighbors are average people that aren’t bloodthirsty. Most people can hardly handle their own lives and are depressed enough as it is without having a sporting event dedicated to killing people. I didn’t realize how well this propaganda type stuff works but clearly it does.
When Nazis stop going across the country having hate parades in my state I'll agree with you.
You’re right, I’m sure the majority of your state is politically extremist and would welcome blood sport.
We are historically a sundown state. The leading party is trying to ban books and change education curriculums. Our police showed up in riot gear for peaceful protests like when Roe v. Wade was turned, and those same police are literal klan members. We know this because during that Nazi rally I mentioned, the police in uniform were nowhere to be found. They were all photographed taking part in the rally. Yet these officers are happy to show up armed in riot gear at peaceful protests...
So yeah, I do feel that my state is politically extremist, and a number of people would absolutely welcome something like that. I wish it weren't how I felt and I wish it weren't the truth, but that's just the byproduct of 2016 and years and years of Fox News and other propaganda "politicizing" peoples identity.
Most of the state? As individuals definitely not, there are many against our state government who actively campaign. We get targeted, followed home, and assaulted for being queer, for being activists who dare try and speak out against hatred at peaceful protests. And yet despite all of us, somehow all those asshats are still getting elected with no policies made to protect these citizens.
I'm not trying to be facetious here. I believe in goodwill first and foremost and doing the right thing over doing nothing, and I always have hope for the best in people. But after 2016, fuck, after January 6th we have to be better than optimistic. We have to hold people accountable, and that means recognizing the actual state of the world we are in, which means recognizing that yes, there are people right now who would argue for a bloodsport. To them it would be bonus points if it was LGBT+ and POC participants.
The only way to come close to changing is by acknowledging our faults as a whole and do as much as we can to remedy them. We have to be compassionate while being completely intolerant of their hateful bullshit and insane rhetoric.
gestures around at the lack of empathy tons of people are all proud to display
points at all the anger when making violent sports safer or pointing out the long term damage cause
It's easy to forget, but we have the same brains as back then. Societal values may have changed, but there will be those with a sick fascination who want to see. When the bath school massacre happened (1920s I think?) People took home souvenirs.
Nothing suggests to us that the morality of Roman times is capable of existing now. You say “societal values may have changed” but that’s the entire thing. They’ve changed. We have shifted the society to where this kind of public torture would never happen. It can happen again and people are capable, but not unless society shifts.
And the trends show that while people are divisive, their morals are very closely related. You may not agree on abortion but most people agree we shouldn’t kill prisoners inhumanely.
People completely misunderstand morality. People are not currently capable of tolerating this kind of thing. If you think so, do a survey and I’ll eat my hat.
Societal values change all the time and not always for the better. Let's enjoy the values we have now, they might not be present tomorrow.
r/watchpeopledie was popular enough to reach the top of r/all quite regularly before NFSW was filtered from it, and had half a million subscribers. There's still plenty people in today's society that would enjoy a medieval style public torture and execution.
Honestly I think you'll find they're not aa different as you wish they were. people are as cruel today as they've ever been.
Cruel enough to torture people in public? Get a grip on reality.
What planet/version of reality are you living on/in? This literally still happens in several counties.
Tell me you've never watched a Republican primary debate without telling me.
Nearly every election cycle there's at least one debate where the death penalty comes up and you have governors competing with each other over body counts to an audience cheering them on.
None of what you said represents average people
I suspect you overestimate the average person.
Saying that people would enjoy public violence is a pure fantasy. No average person is going to go to an execution, they’re barely even favorable and only because it’s “humane”. Most people are nonviolent. Most people will never see anyone die unexpectedly or intentionally. Most people wont ever seriously injure someone.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struggle_session
Most people are only non-violent because the violence is socially frowned-upon. When given an acceptable outlet for savagery, humans have no problem being savage.
This is also how riots form.
What Foucalt gets wrong here is that historically, civilians just enjoy it. They don't find it barbaric or inhumane.
Like there wouldn't be some national conversation about "what have we become" - it'll just be a fun thing people do.