203
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2024
203 points (93.9% liked)
politics
19104 readers
2632 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Kiss his ass? No.
Vote for him because he's the alternative to a waking nightmare for a large part of my fellow Americans? Yes
Do I wish the system was better? Yes. And to that point I'm voting for the guy who still believes in government and rule of law. If I ever want the system to change, I need to vote for the party that is interested in governance.
If they vote for Trump they're a garbage human. If they abstain, they're a coward hiding behind "muh principles" while our neighbors have their rights stripped away.
Edit: fucking tankies lol
First past the post voting is horrible. But until we get ranked choice, either hold your nose and vote, or understand that not voting is EXACTLY EQUIVALENT to a vote for whoever you hate most.
CPG grey did a great video on why first past the post sucks.
Well said. And we're NEVER going to get ranked vote with Biden or the current Democrats. Voting Democrat only keeps the two party gig going longer. How long has it been now, 150 years of the same back and forth?
Unless they start to feel the need to change anything they will never do it if you keep voting for them when they act like this.
Au contraire. Ranked choice is gaining traction having been adopted in 62 jurisdictions. So change is possible right now.
https://www.rcvresources.org/where-is-rcv-used
So if you think protest voting is going to somehow snap the neo liberals out of their ideology and drag them in a more progressive direction, you're going to be in for a big disappointment.
This two party game has been going for 50 years in its current form (post civil rights era). The Democratic party hasn't fundamentally changed its tune during that time because people who run and get elected are rich and powerful enough to be isolated from any effects of fascists getting elected. They don't have to care like us peons / targets of hate.
We will (continue) make more progress by supporting efforts to change our voting methods. Eventually (and playing the long game is necessary; a single election will do nothing) rcv and similar will gain enough momentum that we will start to see viable parties appear with platforms we agree with more than the current main parties.
I really don't know what stops ranked choice voting from being a Democratic Party platform right now.
I'd feel a lot better about it becoming a reality if Joe Biden himself came up and said that's what we need to do.
So they say they are going to do something. You know who said they were going to withdraw from Afghanistan? Democrats.
You know who did withdraw from Afghanistan? Orange Man.
If you trust the guy currently bypassing congress so he can commit genocide instead of to fix the democracy, I'm not entirely sure how to convince you otherwise.
That's odd because I distinctly remember all the Trumptards complaining about how horrible the withdrawal under Biden went. You sound like the jackass who was "just asking questions" about where Obama was on 9-11.
Electing Republicans puts us even FARTHER away from ranked choice, how is that a better solution?
Then the Democrats will have no choice but to actually change something to get elected. Rewarding bad (see "Nazi style genocide") behavior is what actually puts you farther away from ranked choice.
Why is everyone always pretending that every American election will be the last one ever and the entire world is going to end if their party doesn't win.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-dictator-authoritarian-presidential-election-f27e7e9d7c13fabbe3ae7dd7f1235c72
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-says-immigrants-are-poisoning-blood-country-biden-campaign-liken-rcna130141
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/4310834-trump-goes-all-in-on-nazi-rhetoric-and-the-media-gives-him-another-free-pass/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/donald-trumps-january-6-media
Not really a mystery.
They literally (not figuratively, literally) said this shit in 2016. It was all Joever back then. But lo and behold, even the Republicans didn't get in line for their god emperor Trump to hand over all power. On the 6th of January all Trump had was a bunch of Facebook looneys backing him up.
July 19, 2016 If Trump wins, a coup isn’t impossible here in the U.S.
So the Republican party doesn't endorse "Nazi style genocide"? Because if the Democrats do, they sure as fuck do. Why reward the Republicans?
No stop voting for either of them.
Which functionally helps Republicans get elected. You solution is to put Republicans in power hoping they destroy enough that we have to start from scratch.
What we should be doing is primarying the fuck out of every conservative Democrat in the caucus and pushing the party left while maintaining a firewall against the GOP. Not sacrificing minorities, women, immigrants, and poor people to GOP rule to prove a point.
Doesn't matter they both commit genocide.
If you can vote for two Nazis or someone else that isn't a Nazi you don't vote for the Nazi you like most because then he will win. You vote for the person that isn't a Nazi.
And if you do this knowing your choice to vote for the person who never had a chance to win but isn't a Nazi results in the worse of the two Nazis getting elected, I think you've made a poor moral judgement AND a poor strategic one. You're helping the people who most want to harm you and allowing a significant amount of pain and suffering to happen to innocent people.
You can call joe biden a genocidal monster all you want but at the end of the day, Trump is going to hurt a lot of people that Joe Biden won't. He's going to cause more damage to the country than Joe Biden ever could and it won't be in ways that promote the positive change we both want. This is the literal definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I can't rationalize voting for genocide. I haven't voted for a Democrat for president since 2008.
Thats fine, you've supported plenty of horrible shit then. Go ahead and take a break this round and just passively endorse it.
jill stein and howie hawkins are badasses. i don't know what horrible shit you think i was passively endorsing, but i know what horrible shit democrats have been actively endorsing.
And more excuses to advocate for genocide. Even the Nazi's weren't this much in denial. A vote for Biden or Trump directly condones and support genocide. It is a direct action that shows that you voluntarily condone and support it. If you do not vote, or vote third party, you are not complicit in genocide. But if you vote for Biden or Trump then you do.
Says who? You may be able to put whatever you want on the ballot but you statistically have 2 options in a ftpt system. You can only influence the vote in one of two directions, that's it. I don't know why you won't recognize that fact. You're mathematically assisting the Republican party get elected (the far greater threat of genocide).
You're significantly more complicit for the damage the GOP does. Every extra bomb that trump drops on Gaza is on you. Direct or indirect action doesn't matter, what matters is the results.
If you can explain to me how voting third party prevents the GOP from gaining power OR how Donald Trump would be an improvement over Joe Biden I'm all ears, but besides that I think we're done here. I just hope others can understand how backwards this idea is.
only in an ethical system that says the ends justify the means. inconsequential ethics say that the ethics are in the action itself.
Claiming to support a better system while refusing to abandon the current one that doesn't work is performative. Biden does not believe in rule of law or the rights of humans. He and the DNC needs to be abandoned.
Difference is, if you vote for Trump or just don’t vote and Trump gets back in, that will make it WAY harder to change the system.
This is whats called bullshit hyperbole. Your statement assumes that if we vote blue hard enough the DNC they will change course and become representatives of the working class, and that reform can come from within the party. 50 years of 'lesser evil' has gone from indiscriminately locking up black men to full on genocide, and voters solution is reelect the people doing it.
No, my point was that letting trump back in would make any and all change nigh impossible for the foreseeable future
No it won't. There's this insane idea among liberals that everything democrats do take time and small incremental steps. And everything Republicans do is instant and everlasting.
Sorry, but that's not how democratic systems that use first past the post voting work.
The system is working as designed, the issue is that half the voting base and therefore the average independent voter has been slowly and unknowingly becoming more susceptible to choosing fascism for decades due to declining economy, increasing corporate power on a global scale, and well funded propaganda from the right.
Biden can't go further left or he wouldn't have won the democratic primary, remember Bernie? Even the democrat voters decided against him, with the help of some influence (The DNC counts as a corporation too).
Our current situation is literally what our country voted for. Changing the system isn't going to fully fix that.
Now if 90% of the votes went to the left for whatever reason this next election or two (and local elections), then the current right collapses and the landscape shifts back to left. Maybe we would even get an actual left party in about 8 years. We're hardly voting for a person, but rather an entire branch of government. And you can't get elected without votes.
Will any of that happen? Probably not, but in a democratic system, we aren't getting out of this garbage pile unless the majority of VOTERS reject it. Or a unified strike, or a revolution... The point is there needs to be serious majority support, and right now they're pretty comfortable with the fascists.
Funny how it's always vote blue no matter who, whenever it's a moderate running, but those very same moderates can't suck it up and vote for a progressive. You literally just said that he wouldn't get moderate Democratic votes if he went to the left.
A majority of us have decided to reject it by abandoning the DNC and their Blue fascist candidates. It hasnt been the independents choosing fascism, its been democrats accepting what they think is lesser evil for over 50 years. Your evil is so large it towers over people like Reagan
Gotcha. So voting in support of a little bit of genocide is okay.
So you have no domestic policies you care about? Like being able to vote against genocide in the future? Cause Trump has a lot of policies in mind that would seem to prevent doing anything about that later down the line.
I can't even call it shortsighted because it's not like the other option is even going to help things short term. If anything the other option is just going to be even worse. So I don't really get the stance other than a nihilistic "let everything burn" response.
Forget about the Nazi genocide, think about your student loans!
It's like watching poor billionaires not giving a shit about anyone but themselves.
Voting to support a little genocide, vs not voting and allowing a big genocide... Now where have I seen a philosophical problem like that before...
Better than not voting and ending up with a lot of genocide... Or maybe you want to go tell the people of Gaza that you're an accelerationist and just had to let things become worse in order for them to potentially get better?
I see... Voting in support of the current genocide is an act of compassion. Right.
As if voting blue, red, or not at all are the only options. I'm voting for the person who I decide deserves my vote. Not in support of the status quo.
I assume you've put forth a lot of grassroot efforts in the many years in advance to give your group relevance right? You wouldn't just make a meaningless vote to someone with no realistic chance in order to posture right?
And thanks to people like you, the group that holds itself together the most (the right) has more chances to win.
You hate the current system? That's perfectly fine! It's still the system by which rules you need to play may you like it or not!
I'm leaning towards Cornel West but Jill Stein can still win me back. do you have a preference there?
Vermin Supreme.
i think he says that he just wants power and will say anything it takes to get it. so i can't in good conscience vote for him.
Cory Doctorow
canadian native. ineligible.
If we want the system to change, we have to get involved in local politics: pass Ranked Choice Voting, form and cultivate third parties to be viable alternatives, work to get money out politics. RCV is a very attainable goal.
Sadly, I believe the only other option is revolution; that’s our current reality. I don’t see any other peaceful way that we could fix our corrupt and broken government. We no longer have a functioning federal government and democracy; we have an oligarchy and a political party that’s gone off the deep end into total fascism and Dominionism, with supporters who have started committing acts of terrorism when we push back against them.