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submitted 8 months ago by kassuro@feddit.de to c/webdev@programming.dev

An interesting read. Of course just an personal opinion as the author said, but I think he is correct in lots of his points.

I noticed that I think / feel like this myself sometimes, even while I'm a frontend dev myself.

Fortunately I'm in a nice team that values my frontend skills that all the other full stack/ Backend devs are missing.

Did you notice this bias / devaluing of the frontend work yourself?

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[-] namingthingsiseasy@programming.dev 16 points 8 months ago

I think most of the arguments here are kinda ridiculous and poorly thought out. A lot of them also sound pretty imaginary and made-up. For example:

To assert that frontend languages are not programming languages is to assert that what one is doing when writing them is not programming, but something else. Something different.

Something—perhaps not explicitly spoken, but undeniably implied—lesser.

Basically, he's arguing that everyone who thinks HTML/CSS isn't a programming language is wrong, and then the only reason they feel this way is because of a prejudice against front-end developers. I think this is really just a wild leap in logical reasoning, personally.

(No mention of Javascript/Typescript here by the way.)


If you wanted to find the dev specialization with the most people who aren’t cishet white males, you’d pick frontend.

Do we honestly believe the language around frontend is different purely by mere coincidence?

... yes? His argument that HTML/CSS should be considered programming languages is honestly quite weak. Couldn't that be the reason instead?


Certain pursuits are validated with importance, dignity, and honor.

Doctors; lawyers; architects; CEOs; software engineers.

... we relegate others to the role of the sidekick - even though their labor is no less important, and they do at least as much to push the work toward success.

Nurses; paralegals; interior designers; executive assistants; frontend developers.

Who the hell is making these groupings?? Front-end developers compared to nurses? Software engineers to doctors? And software engineers being held in the same light as CEOs... wtf???!?!?

(Surely it’s a coincidence the first group tends to be more male than the second.)

Once again, he's attributing his feelings with prejudice when really, I think his arguments are just very poorly thought out.

Other forms of development are generally considered serious work. They’re important. They’re real computer science. (Computer science itself being a higher level of things we’ve decided are real, serious, and important—maybe not quite as much as medicine or law, but then again, maybe so in some circles.)

Again, I don't see anyone arguing or claiming this. I'm sure the author would argue that just because we don't say it aloud, but it's just implied, but I honestly just think no one says it because it's just silly.


Writing CSS seems to be regarded much like taking notes in a meeting, complete with the implicit sexism and devaluation of the note taker’s importance in the room.

Though critical to the project, frontend work will quite often be disregarded by those who consider it beneath them (usually men, and usually only tacitly, never explicitly). It’s not serious enough; not important enough; not real enough. Too squishy. Like soft skills.

Once again, just unfounded accusations of bias. "You didn't say it, but I'm telling you that you said it anyway."


Their [software engineers'] output is easily measurable. A new API feature; a more efficient database; crises averted and crashes prevented. They go on charts and get presented to board members.

Board members couldn't give less of a shit regarding what software engineers do. We're considered a cost that they'd love to get rid of as much as any other position. Look at all the AI hysteria going on right now, like Nvidia's CEO telling people not to go into software because it won't exist anymore. Again, I have no clue where this guy is getting his ideas from.


If our job title does include the word “engineer,” it will almost certainly specify what we’re engineering. It’ll be UI engineer, or frontend engineer, or maybe the newer (and arguably more fitting) design engineer.

But it’s probably not “software developer” or “software engineer” without any other qualification. Because that, tacitly, is not what we do.

Completely disagree. Front-end development is a subset of software engineering. He even admits this as much:

Sure, this is nuance of language and these titles serve to disambiguate. I get that.

but then he goes on to dismiss that by saying "that's not really it though, it's really because we're not considered real engineers":

by definition, somehow what we do isn’t seen as software engineering. It’s different than that. It’s softer than that.

By what definition exactly? He just explained the reason for the difference in terms above, but then goes on to say that's not really it - the real reason for everything bad is (what he perceives as) negative bias.


There's a couple interesting ideas in here. He makes a good point that layoffs on the front-end are more likely to hit underrepresented classes, though there's not much that can be done about that. Layoffs are happening everywhere, and DEI is probably not what's on CEOs' minds when they make those decisions. And sure, there are unrealistic expectations at times, but that happens everywhere, not just in the software industry, but in pretty much any labor scenario.

But overall, I think this guy has major issues with his self-perception. Pretty much all of his arguments are predicated on very poorly thought-out or straight up imaginary ideas. And blaming everything that's wrong with his perception of front-end development on the white male hierarchy is just... I can barely even find words for it... nonplussing? I think he figured it out by the end of the article:

Maybe I’m feeling sorry for myself. Maybe I’m just a little depressed right now. Maybe I have an inferiority complex and I’m projecting it on everyone else.

I'm pretty sure it's all of those.

I wish this guy the best. Shit is hard right now. But I'd be a fool to say that I agreed with more than 10% of what he's trying to argue.

[-] lysdexic@programming.dev 6 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

I wholeheartedly agree: the article is just plain stupid.

What I find more amusing is that front-end work ends up being the most critical work in any user-facing application. Apps can still lumber around if big chunks of backing services are down, but if a page is rendered poorly or a button is showing up weird, or if text is missing in a place everyone looks at, that's automatically a SEV1 right there.

Unbelievable.

this post was submitted on 16 Mar 2024
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