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Apparently controversial, in this day and age
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 29 Jun 2024
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it's not controversial, what is controversial is what is being defined as genocide. Classic mischaracterization.
Now i'm not going to get into the immediate debate about whether or not this is an active genocide or not, because frankly, not my fucking problem.
what i will get into is the commonly accepted definition of genocide, which is in past tense. It's also commonly used to specifically denote a certain ethnicity, which considering that israel is indiscriminately bombing, i'm not sure how much that applies. I feel like considering palestinian an ethnicity would be like considering a US state to be an ethnicity as well. Though i'm sure there is historical merit to that statement, the complexities of it are not something i'm intimately familiar with so i won't say much on it.
Regardless, I think palestine is realistically entitled to it's own nation, i see no reason for it not to be. Israel, arguably is also entitled to it's own nation, i see no reason for it not to be either.
It'd be cool if israel and hamas stopped committing war crimes, but considering that this is a war in the middle east, i don't know when that will happen.
ethnicity
¦the quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent.
Of course it's an ethnicity. The mental fucking gymnastics you genocides defenders come up with.
We live in a global, interconnected society. Yes, it is your fucking problem, no matter how indirectly.
First they came for the Communists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists And I did not speak out Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists And I did not speak out Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews And I did not speak out Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me And there was no one left To speak out for me
so technically this more closely matches the definition of ethnic, rather than ethnicity, but ethnicity is just the specific designation of an ethnic group, so meh.
from my understanding around the local area to Palestine and Israel, is that Palestine (and Israel as well) are more legally and specifically defined, than ethnically defined. You could argue that Palestinian would be an ethnicity, but like i said, is the entire state of Wyoming also an ethnicity? Indiana locals are Hoosiers, yet they don't ascribe to a certain ethnicity. Like i said i just don't know enough about the local area to be able to classify it more properly.
In fact, the basic internet resources seem to affirm this, googling Palestine brings up two primary results (for me at least) Palestine: the geographical area (unrelated to ethnicity) and the state of Palestine: the country (presumably also unrelated to ethnicity)
"Half of the Palestinian population are diaspora and refugees." also pulled from the same resource, uses Palestinian to refer to the people who "are a member of Palestine" rather than an ethnicity. Historically this is what ethnicity means, but i don't believe that Palestine, over the last 50 years of it's literally global timeline, has remained to be Palestinian, i'm almost certain it's floated away over time, as things tend to do in systems of entropy.
this is from wikipedia, so not a guaranteed source of truth but it seems that Palestine is Arab, which would make Palestine ethnically Arab, ignoring the minority communities. From what i can tell, and from what i expect, Palestine seems to be a cultural melting pot of sorts, so i'm really not sure the term genocide applies here at all.
it's really not, is an individual state in the US considered to be it's own ethnicity? Genuine question.
and yet, i only speak English, how many languages do you speak? I only live in the US, where do you live? I only have experience with western US society because i haven't been anywhere else. Where have you been?
With all due sincerity, i do not fucking know shit out most of the world outside of the US, it's literally not my place to make governmental decisions for the UK, or Ireland for example. Do i want Israel and Palestine to be at war? No, same as i don't want Ukraine and Russia to be at war, am i going to tell them what to do? No, it's not my fucking land, and it's not my fucking government. This is literally not my problem to answer.
The western society, the US in particular has issues with over projecting power and influence into eastern society and expecting it to work, it doesn't time after time. Why are we expecting this to be any different?
also to be clear, you are quite literally pulling this out of your ass, because i'm not even sure this would be classified as a genocide, it might be. And here you are arguing that i am quite literally defending it, even though the only thing i contest is what these actions are constituted as. Whether or not i think it's genocide or not doesn't magically make all the people dying go away. You're the one doing that conflation here, not me.
also, cool reference to the nazis, once Israel turns to Egypt and starts bombing them indiscriminately or something, i'll believe you.
You genocide defending fucks make me sick to my stomach.
"More legally and specifically" as if "ethnicity" isn't well defined in international law. gtfo noob.
Does the state share cultural and historical background with the rest of the NATION-STATE they belong to? Yes. They do. They share a cultural and historical background.
So if you lived a hundred years ago, you would say that the Nazis aren't on "your land" and thus "literally not your problem to answer"?
We live in an global interconnected world and you bet your goddamn stinky arse that it's also your problem, no matter how indirectly. The war in Ukraine isn't your land, thus "literally not your problem", right?
And that's a very simple example (for what I assume is a very simple person), but people could list literally thousands of ways how this is your problem as well.
Do you live under a fucking rock?
https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192
The motherfucking INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT has said there are "reasonable grounds" for a genocide, and their standard of proof is a bit higher than some random asshole online who admits they don't know anything about anything that's outside of America.
http://opiniojuris.org/2024/04/05/the-icjs-findings-on-plausible-genocide-in-gaza-and-its-implications-for-the-international-criminal-court/
It beggars belief that people like you exist; saying that what is very clearly an intentional genocide isn't one and that no-one should do anyone about it. Do you have no fucking morals? Were you just brainwashed so horribly on your Birthright?
If this were real life, you wouldn't even dare to say aloud that "why would it even be considered a genocide", because you'd be so ashamed because everyone would look at you like the drooling moron you are.
Educate yourself https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192
if this is what does you in, you won't have a very good time on this little thing here called the internet, again, you keep saying shit i don't say. Stop putting words in my mouth.
While we're here, let's play a game. one of my personal favorites
alright then big man, link me to the resources that define these things.
most of palestine is partially arab, therefore, palestine is arab in ethnicity. There are a few religious minorities, but that's typical, though i'm not familiar with most middle eastern states so i wouldn't know if any of those are illegal elsewhere.
Also if this is such a hard concept for you to grasp, i will simply point you to asian, european, slavic, african, all of these are arguably ethnicities, though broadly defined, as there are usually more specific subsets for these. Palestinian is arguably a subset of these more broadly defined groups (though i left out the middle east)
The reason that the holocaust was considered genocide was because it was literally targeting jews, for no reason other than cleansing them. (also it had a kill count in the millions) If genocide is considered to be killing people of an ethnic group, than would you classify the US bombing of japan during ww2 to be an ethnic cleansing? because as far as i can tell, that would not be what that is considered, even remotely. Even though we literally bombed hundreds of thousands of japanese people over the course of the war. Presumably genocide has to be defined by a percentage of the total population, given a motivation to "cleanse" said population, the boulder shooting for example would that count as a genocide? What about the florida church shooting?
in fact, according to the genocide convention it's an extremely broad definition, including almost nothing specifically, other than the fact that it must be "... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:" it doesn't specify military operations, and i am almost sure there are exceptions to this clause in the definition of military operations, because this is law we're talking about. In fact, this is also so incredibly broad, that the only way it could reasonably be defined, is in a court of law, specifically an international one, only then would we be able to determine what the answer is here.
you forget that this is basically what the US did up until germany threatened attack on the US. The nazis were also operating differently, unlike israel, who is actively engaged in war, germany sort of just, walked up to people, waved, said hello, and then invaded them and overthrew their governments within about a week or two. (highly verbatim, don't take this literally, since you probably know fuck all about ww2 lol)
Nazi germany was also literally a fascist dictatorship, israel is quite literally a democratic country. These are quite literally two incomparable situations.
the war in ukraine literally isn't my problem, i have no control over it, i have no authority over anything related to it, the best i can do is vote. That's it. Does it affect me? Yes, so do tornados, and hurricanes, and floods, and fires, are those my problem? No, i literally can't do anything about them. I just have to live with them.
yeah and the OPEC founding caused the energy crisis of the 70's. I'm almost certain i could list more ways that the ukraine russia war effects the global economy, i've been around the topic extensively and i am rather familiar with the effects of trade on a globalized economy. My point here is that i did not create OPEC, i literally have no control over what russia decides to do, it doesn't fucking matter what i think.
did you just link the ongoing court case? I'm not up to speed on it as i don't turbo nerd follow every global political event unfortunately, i have to spend time playing factorio and shit, i'm a person after all. So i'm not sure if this has had a legal conclusion (though i would have almost certainly heard about it) This is literally the equivalent of me suing you for "raping me" that doesn't mean that you raped me, or that i lied, it just means that it has to go through court, it has to be tried, and it has to be ruled on, to some degree. To my knowledge, none of that has happened yet considering what most of those links appear to be are "motions filing for the convention of genocide"
and i don't disagree? My problem here is that there is no "proven genocide" it's "reasonable grounds for genocide" those are two very different things. And yes, the standard of proof IS higher than my dumbass self saying shit on the internet, you'll notice i have literally NEVER said that this is or isn't a genocide, i've just said that i'm not sure what this would be classified as, because this is a rather unusual proceeding in modern politics.
also here's a little fun fact if you're linking israeli officials that go against netanyahu. Have you ever considered that they may be doing it as an act of political posturing to gain support from opponents of netanyahu? If i were a political figure in israel that was opposed to him, i would absolutely be doing the same thing.
"plausible violations of the Genocide Convention in Gaza"
plausible does not mean confirmed, it just means likely possible. Not that it even happened, but that there's a likely chance that it could've happened Plausible is barely any more sound than 'maybe" or "possible" or "technically a possibility"
wow... you are, uh, very bad at reading comprehension, like really bad. Are you chatGPT by chance? Llama model? What flavor of generative AI are we speaking here?
To cover this one statement by statement here:
it is not "very clearly an intentional genocide" it's a war, between an organziation that has literally (according to your standards) committed an act of terrorism against israel "At least forty-four nations have publicly expressed their unequivocal condemnation of Hamas and explicitly decried its tactics as terrorism."
"isn't one" Show me one message where i have explicitly said "israel is not committing genocide against palestine" Across my ENTIRE account history, please, show me one.
"no-one should do anyone about it" this one isn't quite true, it's more a mischaracterization than anything. What i'm saying is that we you and me, have almost nothing that we can do, other than say "hey i don't like this, don't do that shit." but that's about the extent of it, our elected officials can do more, and doing this "genocide denial" shit, doesn't fucking help. Because at the end of the day nobody fucking cares whether it's genocide or not they want the war to stop
i do have morals, they're just rather minimal, and weirdly enough, don't include the very specific designation of "ISRAEL BAD PALESTINE GOOD" anywhere in there, it does have shit like "war crimes bad" "war not good" "crime bad" "don't murder" though.
homie you are the one putting words into my mouth here. Please, if you're going to accuse a degenerate furry of being "brainwashed" at least be clever about it.
this literally is real life, and i'm right here, and you're right there, unless you're chatgpt. Why would i be ashamed? This is a very standard practice in the field of philosophy, especially sociology. Clinical analysis of these types of situations is the only thing that provides meaningful results. Also cool adhom, should i call you retarded now? Is that how this works? I would rather not though, because that's extremely rude.
again, i think you need to actually read what it says, because it's pretty explicit about what it says, and what it says is that "it is possible that genocide has been committed in gaza by israel." If it said anything else, there would be an arrest warrant out for netanyahu, most of the upper political government, as well as most military leaders, and perpetrators of the "genocide" weirdly, there seems to be a distinct lack of any of this happening, and i'm not sure why, it's almost as if nobody really knows what the status of what is currently happening is.
Like I said, people like you make me sick to my fucking stomach.
So... either you're completely incapable of using Google, or you're arguing in bad faith, because you just don't even want to try and look up the definition. I can't know for certain, perhaps you're just so stupid you literally have never used Google?
https://unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/stats/documents/ece/ces/ge.41/2014/mtg1/10_E_0718.pdf https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ethnicity-and-international-law/ECF719C31352BA6F65CF54A887B9E384 https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/ethnic-minority-lawyers/a-guide-to-race-and-ethnicity-terminology-and-language
Your childish word-salad is making me laugh out-loud. You don't even get a "good try". Sorry boy-o.
So you deny the Genocide in Gaza?
No need to equivocate like that, your stance is clear.
You need to read it more clearly. Your grasp of language is horrible. You don't understand the differences between terms like state, ethnicity, nation, nation-state, and refuse to even read about them, the PROUDLY IGNORANT American you are. It's not my fault that you can't even grasp your native language on a level that you'd be able to have this conversation.
You don't understand what it takes for the ICJ and the ICC to admit that there is a case here. They do not admit to genocide lightly, and the trial is still open.
WHO is arguing that there ISN'T a genocide?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-expert-says-israel-has-committed-genocide-gaza-calls-arms-embargo-2024-03-26/ https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against
https://press.un.org/en/2024/ga12599.doc.htm
A majority of countries have decided that yes, it is indeed a genocide and yes, Israel is criminal scum and only a tiny minority of countries (like the US) deny the genocide.
There are THOUSANDS of experts on international law who don't hesitate a second to call it what it is; GENOCIDE
But you stand on the side of the Nazis. Fucking disgusting.
Alright, come have an actual voice chat and webcam with me which I will record it and post it here. With your own name, of course, as this is real life we're talking about.
https://discord.gg/kZrVjAyH
But you won't do that, because you're a scared little kid who has been brainwashed and is unable to question said propaganda, which is why you push it despite not really believing in it, which is why you have to argue in bad faith, which is why you pretend Lemmy is "real life"* and which is why you pretend you don't know how to Google and which is why you equivocate two pages of utter gibberish.
So, you would outright deny that there is a genocide in Gaza, is that right?
You'll equivocate a bit more while denying the genocide and avoiding showing your face, just like the sick nazi fucks perpetuating it.
reading the english language makes me nauseous, oh woe is me my head hurts now.
damn, the words, what do they mean. A question for the future times i suppose.
I'm not saying anything in specific with regards to the israel palestine situation other than the fact that "shit's fucked" right now. Could there be a genocide? I suppose so. I would need more definite proof before coming to that determination. You keep pretending like not having a binary answer going one way or the other is literally impossible. It might be if you have the collective reasoning and critical thinking skills of a toddler, unfortunately, i have been blessed with the mental faculties, of a grown adult human. and therefore i have to contend with the realities of the world, because they are simply a thing that exist.
what the fuck do you mean? I have explicitly stated what my stance on this is, multiple times, it's the same everytime, if you think it's any different that's a problem with your comprehension. You have probably gaslit yourself into thinking that i have an opinion on something, that i genuinely do not have an opinion on other than "idk war bad" I would go into it with more depth but clearly that would confuse you, since you seem to lack the capability of interpreting a non binary answer.
perhaps, one could argue that i was making a point about the intricacies in small things making determination of larger concepts a much harder process. Seems like you have that part ironed out, though it seems you're more set on yelling at me and calling me a "genocide defending fuckhead"
yeah i don't, and you probably don't either, what i do understand is how the court works. Once there is a set ruled verdict on this case, it will be a settled matter, and i will not have to expend energy on it, as it will be decided in the global court of law as it should be not on the internet, by angry people who may or may not even be real.
oh i don't know, let's see here, a significant portion of the media, a good chunk of israel, a good chunk of the israeli population, probably a pretty big segment of the jewish population as well. Idk man, seems like quite a few people here to me.
There is no decision here, unless we are talking about the court case, and if we're talking about the court case, then no, there is no decision because it has not run its due course yet. This is the entire point of the case. You don't build a global legal system intending to prevent things like genocide, and then ONLY use it when there is 100% provable, for certain genocide going on. Because then it would, ironically, miss genocide. The whole point of it is to be a check and balance on the various members of the international community hopefully ensuring that something like ww2 never has to happen again.
These countries might publicly report that they believe this, but this is also just that they believe it, and i would presume it's probably "we believe that israel might be perpetrating genocide" rather than the aforementioned 100% affirmative, you seem to continually and regularly use.
oh cool, so you probably have a document included the signed, consented opinion of thousands of international law experts saying verbatim "i believe that israel has 100% committed genocide" that isn't just going to be a 300 hundred page document about the potentiality that israel has committed genocide? I find it curious that you don't link anything the first time around, seems like you're here to yell at people first and provide sources later, seems rather irresponsible to me.
i literally don't, and you can't prove otherwise, and you haven't proven otherwise. Try harder kiddo.
you are literally asking me to doxx myself, very cool. Super cool, perchance can i have your full legal name? Also why would i? Doxx me and come say hi :)
just for the record here, i'm not going to do it because i have nothing i want to say to you. Nor do i care enough about this ordeal to deal with someone on a level like this. But yeah no i guess the "nuance" propaganda has really gotten into my brain and it has really affected me now. It's affected me so deeply that i've completely broken down my entire life view, and rebuilt it from the ground up, just so i could have a view on life that wasn't defined by any existing structure or ideology in particular. I guess that propaganda has really worked it's way in huh? The years of isolation in pursuit of meaning have culminated in the end result of nothing after this long period of time. (i also do not have a webcam, so)
You're sitting here pretending that discord is real life, why are you accosting me for saying that lemmy is real life (ignoring the fact that this is a blatant mischaracterization) lemmy would be considered to be an extension of life, arguably, an extension of the socialization of life specifically. Since most people don't use lemmy much outside of socializing. But that's clearly too much of an abstract concept for you.
also i don't think you understand what the definition of equivocation is, you're the one equivocating my statements lol. Equivocal just means that something is "not clearly defined/stated" an equivocation is using that specific mechanism to work around a certain thing, most commonly a question. If you were to ask me a question, to which i was to respond with something that isn't an answer, that would be an equivocation. I however, am responding with an answer. It's very clear.
Also i like the little extra asterisk after the quoted italics section, very cute, i can see you were rather angry when typing that section out.
to rephrase this a little bit, since you're very clearly loading the statements here. Just because i feel a little bit generous.
"so, would you consider what israel is doing in gaza, to be equivalent to a genocide?"
my short answer would be "no, because i do not have a clear understanding of the situation to a point where i can make a reasonably informed decision on the matter."
My long answer, would be: Given the historical contexts of what is currently going on in israel/palestine at the given moment, it is extremely difficult to give a concise answer to the question, adding all of the propaganda, misinformation, and disinformation out there on the internet, from both sides (we know this part from the ukraine, russia war, it's very apparent) that there is almost no reputable source of information regarding any one topic on the matter, as it differs from person to person. Combined with the given definition of genocide being a particular action, and this being a very definite war. It's hard to delineate between where war stops, and genocide ends. When we include middle eastern culture into this it only gets less defined.
In short, i have no reasonable way, manner, or method, to make a well informed opinion of the events taking place, including my understood lack of knowledge on the topic, such that i wouldn't be disseminating some form of misinformation, or disinformation, which is not something i wish to do. Combine that with the general stance i have on providing other people free will, and not trying to influence people in any particular manner, it would not benefit me in any manner either. The best i can do is to coalesce my known information into one place, and collect my thoughts in a manner that allows me to best express my understanding of the situation, in hopes that it gives other people insight into what's going on, on some rudimentary level, while on top of that, instilling in them a healthy dose of nuance.
although i'm sure nothing i could say would satiate your desires for conflict.
oh please, show me your face! I'm sure it's pretty. Or will you not, because you don't stand for your own morals? I will continue to not, because my morals are simply different from yours, and that's ok. That makes me no less of a person than you, just anonymous. As i prefer to be on the internet, presumably, like you currently are, and will continue to be, because you have no interest in revealing your identity to me as it could bring unforeseen consequences. Which, is fine. Though hypocritical given your previous statements. Perhaps you could even do some equivocation of your own there?
And how exactly did you get "I hate reading" from "I hate genocidal fucks like you"?
Weirdly you keep avoiding actually mentioning any, just going on with vague "both sides" bullshit and "not enough evidence" patheticism.
Since it clearly missed you; DO YOU THINK THERE'S A GENOCIDE GOING ON IN GAZA?
Do you think Israelis are at an equal risk of being the victims of genocide as Palestinians are?
ANSWER CLEARLY; since I'm clearly incapable of perceiving anything other. (Or you just equivocate because you know what is the right side of history but you don't actually want to go against your brainwashing of DO NOT CRITICISE ISRAEL DO NOT CRITICISE ISRAEL.)
You didn't read it, got it. You skimmed and concluded "there's no sentence" and thought that's it. That's exactly my point about the way you "argue."
Yes, I knew you wouldn't, because you don't have the spine to stand behind this garbage with your own name, face or even voice. Probably because it's high and crackling. You can't put your money where your mouth is, because you don't believe or even understand what you're pushing.
No, it isn't, unless you're pushing Israeli propaganda.
Again. Literally the vast fucking majority of the world agree it's a genocide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa%27s_genocide_case_against_Israel#Other_international_responses
Algeria[179] Bangladesh[4] Bolivia[180] Brazil[181][182][183] Chile[184] China[185] Colombia[181][186] Comoros[187] Cuba[188] Djibouti[187] Egypt[189][190] Indonesia[191] Iran[192] Iraq[191] Ireland[193] Jordan[194] Lebanon[195] Libya[196] Malaysia[197] Maldives[198] Mexico[199] Namibia[4] Nicaragua[4][200] Pakistan[201] Palestine[4] Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic[202] Saint Vincent and the Grenadines[203] Slovenia[204][205] Spain[206][207] Syria[208] Turkey[197] Venezuela[4] Zimbabwe[209][210] African Union[211][212] Arab League[213] Organisation of Islamic Cooperation[214] Non-Aligned Movement
Some more alliances, less stately:
These are just the ones officially supporting South-Africa's ICC case. Not every country which condemns Israel.
https://press.un.org/en/2024/ga12599.doc.htm
You know why a majority is for giving Palestine official UN status and Israel and other pussy-states are against it? Because as soon as it goes through, it's much simpler to show that the legal definition of a genocide (which you tried looking up on fucking wikipedia :DDD, here have an actual document lol.
Here's the Israeli Defence Minister directly announcing that they are fighting "HUMAN ANIMALS". (Perhaps google the word "dehumanisation".) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbPdR3E4hCk (edit forgot to add this link)
Yeah, because you're **PURPOSEFULLY IGNORING ALL THE INTERNATIONAL LAW EXPERTS AND GLOBAL HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANISATIONS LOUDLY CRYING GENOCIDE, GENOCIDE GENOCIDE." You're like a Flat Earther insisting he's using objective science. You're like a scientologists, denouncing psychiatry. You're like a transphobe screaming "there are only two genders." ALL the fucking experts disagree with you, but you're not man enough to admit when you're wrong, or even man enough to understand you should stop shaming yourself online.
"NO WAY OF KNOWING :///////""
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/11/gaza-un-experts-call-international-community-prevent-genocide-against
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/03/un-experts-condemn-flour-massacre-urge-israel-end-campaign-starvation-gaza
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9950n003yo
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/19/israels-actions-in-gaza-intentional-attack-on-civilians-un-inquiry
https://turkiye.un.org/en/263401-gaza-number-children-killed-higher-four-years-world-conflict
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/06/25/how-israel-targets-journalists-in-gaza-the-press-vest-now-puts-us-in-danger_6675653_4.html
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/10/un-expert-warns-new-instance-mass-ethnic-cleansing-palestinians-calls (and that's from last october)
Ah, there's nothing I can do to fix a sick puppy like you, so I don't know why I'm wasting my time on a propaganda-troll. You will never admit Israel is raping and pillaging Palestinians, and it's disgusting and it should make you really, really fucking concerned about your own psyche that you have this sickly desire to acquiesce to shit you know isn't real.
But I guess those UN offices are just "anti-semites looking to genocide Israel", huh?
For the record, I love reading. It's just that you're not producing text. You're producing gibberish you think is convincing rhetoric. It's sort of like watching a five-year old play kitchen. You have absolutely no idea of the words you use and your rhetoric is elementary.
You ignore the evidence , then you equivocate and move the goalposts.
You ignore the fact that ICJ and ICC courts take a significant amount of time. If you were right now being held for trial for allegedly having raped 800 children and there were hundreds of hours of filmed evidence of you doing it, do you think it'd mean you're innocent because you've not yet got a guilty verdict?
You're despicable. And it shows from you getting so utterly pissed when I sussed out so easily that you're probably part of this group and of Jewish American descent, went to your birthright (because you couldn't afford a holiday anytime else) and got brainwashed so bad that now you're getting literally cross-brained trying to not to admit what the scum of Israel are doing.
Why do you ignore all the evidence?
I read all your childish garbage utterings. None of them have a lick of an argument behind them. It's like piss-poor rhetoric from a malnourished Soviet official who started vodka on an empty stomach; zero literacy and stumbling all over in a panic because they know they're in trouble.
i'm mocking you for saying the same thing repeatedly, it's fucking cringe bro. We get it, you cannot stomach the thought that sometimes people disagree with you.
ironically, i do answer it, you just keep ignoring it, for some reason, i've given a very clear answer.
oh good, a good question, i actually really like this question.
To answer your question, if we're talking from a military power standpoint, israelis have a significantly less risk of "being genocided" as opposed to "palestinians" though this is within the context of this war specifically. The reason why is because israel is a massive military state, (they own f35s btw, they're basically a US proxy with how much military power they have) Palestine on the other hand, gets weapon shipments from iran, as per usual. I believe there are also a few other imports they have, but they're the usual primary suspects, from my understanding though it's primarily iran using it as an excuse to proxy war.
Looking at a state size and population metric, it's hard to argue against the claim as well, there are simply more people in israel.
If we're arguing outside the context of the war, from the perspective of the middle east? I don't know, depends on how well relations between israel, and the rest of the middle east are i suppose. Palestine would be basically the rest of the middle east, aside from the fact that it borders israel (again, we're ignoring everything else, this is a purely geographic/demographic based analysis)
Wow! Look at that, when you ask good questions, it's almost like it's possible to receive good answers!
since you seem to think i cannot criticize israel at all, it is clearly impossible for me to do so. Even though i have said NOTHING about israel, i will now go on to criticize israel and their wartime efforts.
Let's see, notably in the public eye, the civilian causalities have been rather high. But then again, russia has also lost 300,000 troops in combat, granted not civilian, they're mostly conscripts and draft picks. (a significant portion of which have been ethnic minorities living in russia, so if we're talking about genocide, arguably russia has been technically been doing a genocide, just very quietly) Perhaps that should make you sick to your stomach as well. Ukraine has also suffered losses, but they have also evacuated millions of people, to my knowledge. So most of which would've been people who didn't evacuate (likely by choice) or soldiers.
The public eye is rather boring though, so let's go a little bit deeper, israels control over gaza over the last period of however long it's been going on for is rather concerning. There's very little freedom living in gaza, but then again, hamas did decide to war against israel, so how much of that is really "israel bad" and how much of that is "hamas bad" is a question left up to interpretation i suppose. These kinds of thing when in war are so inconsequential it's not even worth considering though.
Israel absolutely has all kinds of propaganda, i'm not versed on what is confirmed propaganda, but i've heard a lot of stuff is, and a lot of stuff isn't though i'm almost certain that some of it is.
Public PR wise, netanyahu is terrible. Unless you're jewish probably. He seems like a goofy guy, seems to be stuck in an awkward spot where most of his government isn't supporting him, except for the far right, so he seems to be leaning on them in order to stay in power. The public in israel doesn't seem to be happy with what he's doing.
Long term, israel doesn't seem to have a plan, they seem to either war constantly, or not. They don't seem to have any sort of long term solution at all. Which is obviously, not helpful at all. They really seem content to just, keep warring. When they do stop warring, they seem to cause problems. Often times shit happens that really shouldn't (arguably hamas is one)
nah i just don't remember what i typed because it's been like three fucking days and i'm not scrolling up to make a coherent point about some shit i'm clearly philosophically babbling about.
yes it is? It's literally war? Go find ANY open source intelligence community working on military stuff, anywhere, and please tell me how confident they are in what they find, and what they predict. You'll find that they aren't confident at all, and in fact just propose ideas. It's really quite boring, but i find it rather interesting.
again, i think this is a slight mischaracterization. This is a list of countries around the world who support south africas legal inquiry to whether or not this is considered to be genocide. Meaning that they would like for a just answer to the question at hand.
"The president expressed his support for South Africa's initiative to call on the International Court of Justice to order Israel to immediately cease all acts and measures that may constitute genocide"
Hey look at that! it's a quote directly from the segment you quote from on wikipedia! It says EXACTLY what i said it would probably say, isn't that weird? It's almost like i know some things.
woah, look at that, an actual legal definition, you could've just linked that in the first post, or comment, i don't remember how this thread started anymore and we wouldn't be here!
Regardless i still have some issue with the definition as stated, because it has no (at least none that i can find) stipulations for anything regarding an actual war, because it turns out, most wars would arguably be defined as genocide under that definition. The USSR against Afhgan war? Genocide. WW1? Genocide. Numerous genocides infact! Japanese sino war? Also probably genocide! Japanese russo war? Also probably genocide! The mexican american war? Also, still probably genocide.
anyway, enough contextual meandering, that's not the point, i'm just making a point here.
little fun fact for you, human rights orgs are primarily opposed to this, because it's a fucking war. Nobody likes war. Also just because someone is an expert doesn't mean you should listen to them, and or fully believe them. here's a little tidbit of information for you. Most of these experts particularly the law experts, are probably rather infamiliar with local cultural customs and differences between the east and the west, which is almost certainly an influencing factor for this war. A lot of them are likely getting lots of air time. (which also means money) and the media loves money! We know this.
Also, they're loudly crying genocide. Nobody wants to fucking listen to anybody doing that. It's literally the boy who cried wolf. If it's actually a genocide, the currently ongoing court case slated to determine this question, will fucking tell us. As for now, how do we talk about this? Simple, don't call it a genocide, because we don't fucking know. You wanna talk about war crimes? That's great, i'll listen, there's something actually tangible there. You wanna talk about human rights? That's another big thing, that's a tangible thing.
Stating that this is genocide is like me stating that the world is going to end october 22 2042. It doesn't matter to you whether i'm factually right about it, maybe i'm fucking god for all you know. There's nothing of tangible substance there. You can't do anything with that. Therefore, you don't care.
hey look, a good argument against israel, sure is weird how when you bring up tangible things, stuff starts to become a lot more reasonable doesn't it?
i could say the exact same thing to you, and it would be equally as valid. This is a bad argument. I won't entertain it.
you link things that do not claim there is an active genocide (in the headline at least) and the one that does, is lying.
i appreciate that you picked up the furry lore. :)
they might be, idk, russia might have been doing the same thing in ukraine, wars fucked bro. You see that video from wagner of the POW being sledehammered?
oops, character limit, comment in reply to this one coming up soon!
Again, your lack of education on the subject is quite entertaining. No, it isn't war. Is the nation of Palestine at war with the nation of Israel? No. Israel claims to be at war with a vaguely defined terrorist organisation. There's quite a lot of literature about the war on "terror" and how it enables authoritarian military action. Of course you haven't read any of that.
War has a definition.
https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/war/
Hmm... and what does that "international humanitarian law" say about this conflict? Should we ask the experts, perhaps? Unless you think you're so much more knowledgeable in international law than literally every single expert on international law?
Since you seem to be partial to Wikipedia (probably because of it's simplicity): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes
But also, from an actual source:
Report of the Panel of Experts in International Law
"No my gf lives in Canada you wouldn't know her, but she's definitely real"
"The information you gave from the United Nations, the UN Human Right Office, they mean absolutely nothing, or they straight up lie."
And you say you could equally well say to me that my facts don't make sense? Mmm-hhmm, yeah. I keep showing actual sources from the United Nations and other reputable institutions and experts on international law. You keep having a tantrum and kicking your feet, screaming "fake news fake news." You might delude yourself into thinking we're both on the same footing in the debate, but you are the only one who's even slightly buying that.
Keep sealioning, kiddo, it's not gonna make your delusions real. You still refuse to answer very simple yes or no questions: is Israel committing warcrimes? Is there a genocide being committed? You pretend to answer, but you only equivocate. And your equivocation isn't even on the level of Trump, and that man is demented as fuck.
ah curious, let's see. For full transparency, since i'm better at quoting from you, here is an excerpt from the original 1988 hamas charter
"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
But i'm sure you'll just say "well um akshually, this is old. So let's have a look at the "new charter" as referred to by hamas themselves.
link of course: https://israeled.org/resources/documents/hamas-a-document-of-general-principles-policies/ (ah but of course, this is an israeli source, how could i trust it? Well, jstor has a copy, but it's fucking paywalled and im not paying for that shit)
"Palestine is the land of the Arab Palestinian people, from it they originate, to it they adhere and belong, and about it they reach out and communicate."
just a little tidbit on palestine being arab, get fucked even hamas says so.
"Palestine is the cause of a people who have been let down by a world that fails to secure their rights and restore to them what has been usurped from them, a people whose land continues to suffer one of the worst types of occupation in this world.
Palestine is a land that was seized by a racist, anti-human and colonial Zionist project that was founded on a false promise (the Balfour Declaration), no recognition of a usurping entity and on imposing a fait accompli by force.
Palestine symbolizes the resistance that shall continue until liberation is accomplished, until the return is fulfilled and until a fully sovereign state is established with Jerusalem as its capital."
oh boy this sounds familiar.
" Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras Al-Naqurah in the north to Umm Al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity. Palestine is an Arab Islamic land. It is a blessed sacred land that has a special place in the heart of every Arab and every Muslim."
hmmm.
"The Palestinian people are one people, made up of all Palestinians, inside and outside of Palestine, irrespective of their religion, culture or political affiliation."
Don't mind them casually dismissing your conception of ethnicity in this case.
"Hamas also believes that Palestine has always been and will always be a model of coexistence, tolerance and civilizational innovation."
they do also throw this one in there, to be fair.
Oh ADHD though time, did i mention the israeli settlements in westbank/gaza (however that works) because if not, why the fuck are they there? Yet another anti-israeli point for you to wrap your head around.
"The following are considered null and void: the Balfour Declaration, the British Mandate Document, the UN Palestine Partition Resolution, and whatever resolutions and measures that derive from them or are similar to them. The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah; it is also in violation of human rights that are guaranteed by international conventions, foremost among them is the right to self-determination."
wonder how they're going to go about the dissolution of israel...
"Resisting the occupation with all means and methods is a legitimate right guaranteed by divine laws and by international norms and laws. At the heart of these lies armed resistance, which is regarded as the strategic choice for protecting the principles and the rights of the Palestinian people."
yeah idk man, they literally state by all means. I would presume war is included in that.
"Hamas rejects any attempt to undermine the resistance and its arms. It also affirms the right of our people to develop the means and mechanisms of resistance. Managing resistance, in terms of escalation or de-escalation, or in terms of diversifying the means and methods, is an integral part of the process of managing the conflict and should not be at the expense of the principle of resistance."
oops more war speak.
"From a legal and humanitarian perspective, the liberation of Palestine is a legitimate activity, it is an act of self-defence, and it is the expression of the natural right of all peoples to self-determination."
ah curious, self defense, surely this could not be construed to mean war could it?
accidentally posted, oopsiess, anyway.
man you really keep reaching, please show me somewhere i've explicitly stated that.
there's a few reasons, it's generally pretty accurate on the general public opinion of conflicts, and often has lots of high density information on the given topic, and unlike most of the internet, isn't a complete clusterfuck that is hell to navigate.
It's also generally universally accepted to be "moderately reliable" which is highly useful.
and since we're linking wikipedia as a source here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
oh look at that, it lists it as a conflict, which is basically one step under a war.
my brother in christ, scroll up you lazy motherfucker and see what i wrote, i haven't edited that shit because i'm not a bitch ass motherfucker. And then yell at me on my contradictions or whatever the fuck you want to yell at me about. You love reading don't you? I thought you enjoyed this?
cool story but like, it's irrelevant, try posting something actually relevant next time and maybe it'll matter lmao.
i have not but ok.
and curiously, you keep yelling at me. It's almost as if you are not actually any better than me (because otherwise you would speaking with world leaders about this or something) or perhaps a scholar on the topic and busy studying, or you would just post an actually informative comment and leave it at that, because nothing more need be said, but nope, 12 comment chain instead.
Oh look, another question you haven't asked yet which btw, yes israel is comitting war crimes, and so has hamas. It's almost like answering actual questions is, rather easy.
again, i don't know, and seeing as there is currently a court case on it, i will wait for that verdict. My opinion simply is not as valuable as the world of legal scholars and experts, but curiously, you seem to think your opinion is somehow more objectively right than those, even though they haven't yet deliberated on it.
respond to my actual answers pussy.
continuation of last comment :)
i enjoy reading also, it's often just technical material or something sociological in nature. I should say the same thing about you, you've done nothing but reiterate the same points for the first five or however many comments you made, i simply responded in kind, you'll notice i responded to actually engaging questions in this one!
my brother in christ you do nothing more than post links to shit other people have said and reiterate what they say while being mad, you are literally the equivalent of a piece of silicon processing USB signals.
brother, the evidence you are posting is people going "yeah we think this might be genocide, and we would like for it not happen please" Like i'm sorry but if this were documentation about a nuclear reactor i'd be reading a hand manual for a fucking blender right now.
yeah, it's a court, of course they do, why do you think i'm waiting until the finalize their statement on this situation? Lmao.
hmm let's see, and if i were david mcbride, rotting in australia prison right now, for "committing warcrimes" when i merely exposed actual war crimes, and how they were covered up, by charging people who DIDN'T COMMIT THOSE WARCRIMES. How would i feel about the situation? Idk probably devasted, but like, i think this is probably the least of our concerns. Julian assange was only recently freed, and he didn't even do shit.
Also, legally speaking, it's undecided until the verdict, unless pleas deal technically, but the same standard applies so whatever.
The phrase "innocent until proven guilty" is more about how we should treat people going through the court, you know, salem witch trial type shit.
damn, you really hung yourself out to dry on this one huh. Unfortunately i just so happened to respond with actual responses this time. RIP.
the shit you're posting is bad homie. It's not good evidence. It's the metaphorical equivalent of me scrawling on a napkin that there is 12 million dollars in cash in a forest somewhere in ohio, at these coordinates, and then handing it to you.
this ones clever, i like this one.
"Fake news fake news, everything is an opinion, facts don't exist! Israel is just defending itself! Genocide doesn't exist! Palestinians are animals, you can't genocide animals!"
How did you enjoy your birthright year?
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/10/damning-evidence-of-war-crimes-as-israeli-attacks-wipe-out-entire-families-in-gaza/
Genocide hasn't been determined, as again, ICC procedures take time. Why are you ignoring this? Why are you claiming there is no evidence, when there is enough evidence for the ICC to find "reasonable grounds" for prosecuting and seeks arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant? https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/2024-05/240520-panel-report-eng.pdf
The Prosecutor seeks arrest warrants against Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, and Yoav Gallant, the Israeli Minister of Defense, on the basis that they committed the war crime of ‘intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare’ under article 8(2)(b)(xxv) of the ICC Statute. The Prosecutor also seeks to charge the two suspects with various other war crimes and crimes against humanity associated with the use of starvation of civilians as a method of warfare under articles 7 and 8 of the ICC Statute. These include the war crimes of ‘[w]ilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health’ or cruel treatment, wilful killing or murder, and intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population. The proposed charges also include the crimes against humanity of murder, extermination, other inhumane acts and persecution with respect to deaths and injuries resulting from or associated with the systematic deprivation of objects indispensable to the survival of Palestinian civilians in Gaza. The Panel notes the Prosecutor’s statement that other alleged crimes, including in connection with the large-scale bombing campaign in Gaza, are actively being investigated.
The Prosecutor seeks to charge Netanyahu and Gallant on the basis that they made an essential contribution to a common plan to use starvation and other acts of violence against the Gazan civilian population as a means to eliminate Hamas and secure the return of hostages as well as to inflict collective punishment on the civilian population of Gaza who they perceived as a threat to Israel. It is also alleged that they had effective authority and control over their subordinates and knew of their subordinates’ crimes but did not take necessary action to prevent or repress these crimes, leading to their criminal responsibility as superiors.
The war crime of ‘intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare’ requires ‘depriving [civilians] of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions’. The crime is not limited solely to the deprivation of food, but includes other objects indispensable for the survival of civilians such as water, fuel and medicine.
The Panel notes three preliminary points relevant to its analysis. First, as a result of a number of factors, including the imposition by Israel of restrictions on the movement of people and goods from and to Gaza in the aftermath of its 2005 disengagement, Gazans were highly dependent on Israel for the provision of and access to objects indispensable for the survival of the population even before 7 October.7
Second, although Israeli officials have a right to ensure that aid is not diverted to the benefit of the enemy and to stipulate lawful technical arrangements for its transfer, they cannot impose arbitrary restrictions -- such as restrictions that violate Israel’s obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law and 7 international human rights law, or that contravene the principles of necessity and proportionality -- when exercising these rights.
Third, parties to an armed conflict must not deliberately impede the delivery of humanitarian relief for civilians, including humanitarian relief provided by third parties. And when a territory is under the belligerent occupation of one party to the conflict, there is also an enhanced active obligation for the occupying power to ensure adequate humanitarian aid for civilians, including by providing such aid itself insofar as this is necessary.8 In the Panel’s view, while it can reasonably be argued that Israel was the occupying power in Gaza even before 7 October 2023, Israel certainly became the occupying power in all of or at least in substantial parts of Gaza after its ground operations in the territory began.9
With this in mind, and based on a review of material presented by the Prosecutor, the Panel assesses that there are reasonable grounds to believe that Netanyahu and Gallant formed a common plan, together with others, to jointly perpetrate the crime of using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare. The Panel has concluded that the acts through which this war crime was committed include a siege on the Gaza Strip and the closure of border crossings; arbitrary restrictions on entry and distribution of essential supplies; cutting off supplies of electricity and water, and severely restricting food, medicine and fuel supplies. This deprivation of objects indispensable to civilians’ survival took place in the context of attacks on facilities that produce food and clean water, attacks against civilians attempting to obtain relief supplies and attacks directed against humanitarian workers and convoys delivering relief supplies, despite the deconfliction and coordination by humanitarian agencies with Israel Defence Forces. These acts took place with full knowledge of the extent of Gazans’ reliance on Israel for essential supplies, and the adverse and inevitable consequences of such acts in terms of human suffering and deaths for the civilian population.
The Prosecutor has also sought charges against Netanyahu and Gallant for the war crimes of wilful killing or murder and intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population, as well as the crimes against humanity of extermination or murder and persecution for deaths resulting from the use of starvation and related acts of violence including attacks on civilians gathering to obtain food and on humanitarian workers.
In the Panel’s view, there are reasonable grounds to believe that the suspects committed these crimes. The Panel also considers that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the crimes were committed in the context of a widespread and systematic attack against the civilian population of Gaza, pursuant to State policy.
The Panel’s assessment is that there are reasonable grounds to believe that Netanyahu and Gallant are responsible for the killing of civilians who died as a result of starvation, either because the suspects meant these deaths to happen or because they were aware that deaths would occur in the ordinary course of events as a result of their methods of warfare. According to material submitted by the Prosecutor, a large number of Palestinian civilians have already died in these circumstances. In relation to extermination, the number of deaths resulting from starvation is sufficient on its own to support the charge, according to standards set out in international jurisprudence.10 And this number is, unfortunately, only likely to rise. There are also reasonable grounds to believe that the starvation campaign and associated acts of violence involved the severe deprivation of victims’ fundamental rights by reason of their identity as Palestinians. This can be qualified as the crime against humanity of persecution.
The Prosecutor has also sought to charge Netanyahu and Gallant with the crime against humanity of other inhumane acts and the war crime of wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health, or cruel treatment, with respect to the non-lethal suffering inflicted through starvation of the civilian population of Gaza. The Panel assesses that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the suspects committed these crimes against many thousands of individuals in Gaza.
Based on the material it has reviewed, the Panel assesses that there are reasonable grounds to believe that Netanyahu and Gallant made essential contributions to the common plan to use starvation of civilians as a method of warfare and commit other acts of violence against the civilian population. This is evidenced by their own statements and the statements of other Israeli officials. It is also evidenced by the systematic nature of the crime, and the involvement of the suspects at the apex of the Israeli governmental apparatus, with effective authority and control over their subordinates and leadership positions in the War Cabinet and Security Cabinet, in which all key decisions on the conduct of the war -- including blocking and limiting humanitarian aid -- have been made. The Panel is also of the view that there are reasonable grounds to believe that the suspects can be held responsible as superiors given their knowledge of the crimes and the fact that they took no steps to prevent or repress their subordinates who committed them.
But no, there's "no evidence", right? You're not just being a willfully ignorant brainwashed git who's ignoring all the literal evidence and having a tantrum, right? But you won't even read those chapters, and even if you did, your programming won't allow you to accept them. It's despicable. Get a fucking grip on your own head.
cool quote, where'd you get it from?
no clue what this is supposed to mean, but i assume it's jewish, and in which case, it would probably be offensive in this context, but i'm not jewish so it isn't my place to decide (oops there goes my logic making sense again)
Yeah, this is exactly what i said, you're literally paraphrasing the exact thing i said, and then asking me why i'm ignoring it, when i've literally stated it at least three times. Yes court takes time, that's why i fucking trust it to be accurate. There is little to no benefit in the court ruling incorrectly, so when they inevitably rule one way or they other, it'll be final, and if not, then it will be overturned legally, of course. This is the wonderful thing about the court system, it's fully self regulated and has procedures for everything
oh boy what a blatant mischaracterization you've got here, you really seem to be losing your grips on this conversation now huh? First of all. I personally do not have enough information (not evidence) on whether or not there is an past, present, or future tense genocide happening in palestine at this very time. Unfortunately i don't exactly have copious amounts of time to dedicated to reading up on legal paperwork and various different court rulings as well as going to palestine, or at the very least, interacting with people from either side to see what's actually going on around the area.
And as a result, i am doing the very responsible thing of staying nuanced and undecided. It's a rather remarkable thing really, not being politically charged in any given direction, makes for quite a peaceful life, it's nice, you should try it.
also, evidence is a bit of a stretch, we're talking about genocide here, you either kill hundreds of thousands of people, or you don't. It's more accurately "suspected grounds for genocide" unless of course the evidence you're referring to here is the active warzone. But that wouldn't make your case sound as strong otherwise would it? Perhaps the ruling courts are using the term evidence? I have no idea. That's possible.
ah curious, a charge that isn't genocide! In fact, not a single block of text you ripped includes the word genocide, fascinating.
Are you familiar with the USSRs history? Their own people starved, very frequently, they were put through literal labor camps, even to this day, russia still uses labor camps for punishment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrective_labor_colony
Yet they haven't been charged with genocide once to my knowledge, though originally, the USSR included a draft on the genocide clause that stated it would not apply to your own people. So there is that, but i'm guessing that was removed at some point.
Ah yes, i'm the one having a tantrum here.
bro the first four chapters are about starvation and intentional withholding of supplies and food. It's literally referred to as starvation, not genocide.
There you go again, pretending that either you've never heard of what either "implication" or "birthright" mean and that you're literally too stupid to write a single word into Google... OR you keep doing the same thing you've been doing all along; arguing in bad faith.
Just like you genocide defending lunatics always do.
Keep hammering out pages of junior high level non-sequiturs, it's not gonna change the situation.
You deny a genocide happening. The world doesn't.
Keep pushing that propaganda, I'll keep replying here, as I enjoy forums and laughing at proudly ignorant American girls like you.
I come over and strangle you to death. The cause of death is strangulation. The coroner writes that in the autopsy report. Due to this evidence, I get arrested and put on trial. Yet later, after a trial I get convicted for homicide? "There goes my logic, making sense again." ;)
what do you mean by implication? I meant birthright specifically.
i did, and curiously it spat some shit out about israel, which would be why i assumed it's jewish. Shockingly, i'm not israeli, nor jewish, so idk what the fuck it is. But please, indulge me and expand upon it. I'm always willing to learn. Unlike some people.
bro i asked a question, it's not that deep, calm down.
again with the adhom and saying shit that's demonstrably false. Very cool.
and maybe i will, because i'm actually just an AI. Perhaps i'm not. Who knows!
not a single part of this statement is true. The world might suspect a genocide is happening though. Me personally? It could go either way.
oh cool, i'm female now. Did you ever stop to think about the fact that most israeli supporters in the US are middle aged white men who are republican? Probably not. I'll give you this one for your future adhoms.
ah sick, roleplaying i enjoy this.
Let's do one. You're my kid, i'm your parent, i don't feed you because you keeping bombing israel and israel is angry (or something) and israel in return takes away your food (i guess i'm israel in this context) That would also make you palestine though. Naturally, you become malnourished, and eventually the authorities take you away from me, for child neglect, assuming that it doesn't just stop at this point (that does happen here) and that i get hit with a legal case, it would almost certainly be under the pretense of "child neglect" not "homicide" because, curiously, i didn't kill you.
Again similar thing happening in ukraine right now. They have little to no food production, which is most of their exports, but that's irrelevant. Curiously russia isn't committing genocide by blowing up grain silos in ukraine. It's funny how that works.
Proudly ignorant, once again.
You keep arguing in bad faith, as everyone knows that if you actually wanted to know what "birthright" meant, as if you didn't already, it'd take you 10 seconds to check it on Google. So asking that is you asking in bad faith. I'm explaining this because I genuinely think you don't understand it, the proudly ignorant American that you are.
Once again, equivocation on the level that I mostly remember encountering on recess 20 years ago. You said "it says starvation, not genocide". That's you pretending that once can't commit by, among other methods, intentional starvation.
Like this:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza
##The Israeli government is using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare in the Gaza Strip, which is a war crime.
You can't admit to a single piece of evidence of the MOUNTAIN of evidence of war crimes there is against Israel, but you'll keep pretending you aren't on their side, but being "nuanced". No you're not. You're scared, willfully ignorant and on the wrong side of history.
That's why I keep linking things like these and the only thing you can do is pitiful whinging about "both sides".
https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/2024-05/240520-panel-report-eng.pdf https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses
Oh, right, sorry, I just remembered you're proudly ignorant and probably your literacy matches that attitude, so something... more to your level:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_the_Gaza_Strip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_schools_during_the_Israeli_invasion_of_Gaza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_health_facilities_during_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_airstrikes_on_municipal_services_in_the_Gaza_Strip
People like you disgust me, but as I don't want to be as shit of a person as you, I actually reply in good faith. People like you just tie yourself in knots.
Yeah, i googled it. I still don't understand what the fuck you meant by the implication of using it though. Which is why i think it's related to israel or judaism. But i don't know anything about those two things, so i'm not sure i would be able to recognize what you meant by it, unless you meant my birthright to post shitpost comments on the internet or something? I fail to see how this is relevant though. So i'm assuming it's some sort of dig at religion that is failing incredibly hard here because i legitimately have no idea what you mean. And you are gaslighting yourself into believing otherwise.
i already covered this, go read what i actually said. This simply isn't congruent with history, nor does it make any sense in the context providing, because genocide is almost always an explicit violence act against another group of people for no reason other than their ethnicity. Defining it as anything else would include Mao's famines, and north koreas famines. But weirdly, you don't seem to be continually puking yourself over the thought of hundreds of thousands of north korean farmers who are currently starving. It's almost as if you either, only care about the Palestinians, or simply do not actually believe what you are saying, and are simply doing some classic, political posturing here.
Again, because you seem to be incapable of reading, russia is LITERALLY doing the same thing to ukraine. But again, doesn't seem to matter to you, because apparently ukrainians are less worthy to life than Palestinians according to your complete lack of care about them starving.
war crimes against israel? October 7th was considered to be one, but obviously, you misspoke here. And you meant the war crimes that israel is committing, that are being levied against israel. To which, i have agreed too. And you have subsequently, ignored, either because you aren't reading what i'm posting, even though i'm clearly reading what you post. Or because it simply disentangles your entire narrative here of you being "correct" and it makes you look bad, so in turn you have to save face by pretending they don't exist.
Or are you just going to pull the "i couldn't remember" card? Even though it was literally 30 minutes to an hour ago that i said this, and that you read it, in fact, why don't i go pull it up? "Oh look, another question you haven’t asked yet which btw, yes israel is comitting war crimes, and so has hamas. It’s almost like answering actual questions is, rather easy."
oh wow, look at that, you literally lied.
i'm on the wrong side of history? Homie, there is no wrong side of history, merely the side that gets written down and archived at some point. Whether this comes to bite in the back later is a different story. The chances of that happening are incredibly small though.
Also i find it rather cute that you keep calling me willfully ignorant, even though i keep explaining to you, that i am quite literally basically ignorant on the topic, because well. I don't have the fucking time.
oh, you're the "both sides" type of person, nobody is worse than these type of people. Because they sit in a superiority complex of their own, completely abusing a rather useful concept.
Since you don't seem to understand how it works, i'll explain it to you (properly( bothsidesing is a technique commonly used to compare to different groups, in this case opposing parties. Via isolating one side, documenting it's behaviorisms, and rhetoric. And the repeating the same for the other side, in a similarly isolated manner. And finally, once complete, you can compare them between the two, and what would be expected (in this situation) is a significant overlap in a lot of rhetoric, and a handful of valid underlying causes to the problem. The rhetoric is obviously going to be self determinant. It should be very clear where it is. The underlying structures are going to be hidden within rhetoric most of the time, though apparent.
The problem with most "both sides" ""both sides"" type of people is that they complete forego the entire process of this, and instead do surface level equivocations of two often entirely irrelevant scenarios. Even though this is literally a fundamental fallacy of conceptualization. It'd be like if i said that global warming doesn't exist because seasons still happen. But of course, you've never done this right?
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/23128346/11632541
oh, oh no... What a terrible discovery.
i would also like to point out, that you're expecting to link the same resources over and over again, while expecting me to do something about it instead. Debate is a two way street my friend, you have done nothing but fence sitting here.
oh and by the way, i find it curious that you accuse me of sealioning, even though you're literally the one DEMANDING an answer from me, lmao. Go read your definitions better so you can use fallacies properly.
my guy, you have done nothing but reiterate the same exact statement you made originally. If anybody here is in bad faith, it's you because you refuse to interact with any of the premises i propose.
Interesting that you seem to use the "people like you" phrasing. Surely that could never imply anything bad. Surely you don't have a trained predispoition against people who disagree with you. Do you?
But, since you seem to like fallacy so much, i will indulge you. Notably, you keep using an "appeal to the stone" fallacy. Or more clinically referred to as "proof by assertion" You're also entertaining an "invincible ignorance fallacy" You will probably engage in "argument of repetition" later on, when in the shower, yelling at me. Also an "argument from silence" fallacy in there. And since you seem to like language so much 'ignoratio elenchi" fallacy as well.
Curious how all of these are "relevance fallacies" isn't it. Fun fact, a common trap with fallacy is just misapplying them wherever you see fit. Whether that is the case here, or whether your line of behaviorisms uniquely lines you up for this specific type of fallacy, is not up to me, as i don't like to meander into these kinds of things. It's rather boring and difficult. It's more interesting running into the underlying concepts.
You're such a bad liar, and it taking several comments for you to even understand what "in bad faith" meant and then pretend like you suddenly do know how to ask it the simple questions you pretended not to understand in the previous comment is... just chefskiss.
Ah, so we're using your definition, but the definition of the UN and the actions of Israel actually fulfilling reasonable grounds for it doesn't matter, the experts on international law don't matter, but things you pull out of your arse do? :D
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
Here you go, miss.
If you weren't American, I'd have to assume you're asking this in bad faith, once again. But since I know your guys' literacy rates are on the level of the third world, I think you might have actually read it like that. No worries, I'll help you understand your native language better. I said "You can’t admit to a single piece of evidence of the MOUNTAIN of evidence of war crimes there is against Israel"
The war crimes weren't committed against Israel. The evidence is against Isreal. The evidence that proves they'ev committed war crimes. On Palestine.
Like these:
https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/2024-05/240520-panel-report-eng.pdf https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses
Oh, right, sorry, I just remembered you’re proudly ignorant and probably your literacy matches that attitude, so something… more to your level:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_the_Gaza_Strip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_schools_during_the_Israeli_invasion_of_Gaza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_health_facilities_during_the_Israel–Hamas_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_airstrikes_on_municipal_services_in_the_Gaza_Strip
You're literally ignoring the fact that the world is against Israel's slaughter of women and children, so you get to this tantrum and start kicking your foot and going "waaah, waah, no no no, Israel no bad, only hamas bad!"
Then you go on a tiresome tirade about how you see "fallacies". It's rather entertaining, really, watching a kid like you larp understanding debating. That's why I'm still in this thread. People like you disgust me, but it's that sort of morbid type of disgust in which I'm sort of intrigued by it. Your willfull ignorance is psychologically interesting.
Yeah, people like you. People who act in this way, denying reality, denying genocide. Which is what you're doing, and which is what I talked about through-out this thread, you being the case in point, really. I'm not talking about some random of group of people. It's not some ethnic trait I've chosen to hate. I hate genocide deniers, like I hate rapist pieces of shit and child murderers. It doesn't matter where they're from or what they look like; if they slaughter children and rape people and then deny all that having happened; they're a shit person, innit? (Oh and just as a personal tip, if you like larping philosopher with "fallacies", maybe Google "fallacy fallacy", unless you're still pretending not to know how to Google. :DD)
Israel is a war criminal and it's committing genocide, and you are defending it.
please explain to me what you think i'm lying about, i'm very curious.
ah yes, just the colloquially accepted definition of genocide by most jewish people, and also the general public at large, as a result of the actions of nazi fucking germany. Also i find it cute how you have silently retconned from saying "confirmed genocide" to "reasonable grounds for genocide"
And again, i don't disagree with the experts, you just completely mischaracterize what they say and then shit yourself over it repeatedly until someone quits yelling at you for being wrong.
"fun fact, most people don't agree that killing people is morally good" wow aren't you just a stand up citizen, stating the laws of nearly every fucking country in the world. And the culturally accepted moral status of murder globally across the world, wow look at how far you've come.
Again, i am also against this, i have literally said as much. You're just fucking stupid and refusing to acknowledge it.
The following are quotes of things that i have said, in this conversation:
And this is just the first page of comments on my profile. You can almost certainly find more if you actually look through my history. But you won't.
my brother not in christ, you have sealioned me this entire debate, and then without a hint of irony, you accused me of sealioning, even though clearly, you're significantly more aggressive on me answering your questions, than i am on your answering my questions. WHICH MIGHT I ADD, IS BECAUSE YOU FUCKING IGNORE THEM.
following pulled from an actual philosopher. Something you would be deeply unfamiliar with.
bro if you think willful* ignorance psychologically is "interesting" I regret to inform you that i don't even yell at you to gather interesting information about you, because literally everything you're doing right now is an already documented existing form of fallacy, or trolling. There is nothing else here.
And besides, willful ignorance is a well studied concept since at least the beginning of science. Probably well before it. Stoicism in some capacity is primarily based on willful ignorance. There are entire fucking religions based on the ignorance of modern society, and it's methods of operation. In fact, there is an entire disorder on the schizophrenia spectrum that is primarily related to willful ignorance of most things not immediately relevant to an individual.
as defined by what strict standards? Because you cannot be the one to define them. As that would be a conflict of involvement. For one thing, that's dehumanization. A tale as old as racism. Secondly the entire purposes for the definition of my "actions" is to argumentatively enclose me into your small framework of the world. Because you don't have the mental capacity to conceptualize anybody thinking outside of three cubic meters of physical space. And unfortunately for you, i am unbound by physical space. I could literally just start saying "israel is committing genocide against palestine" "death be to israel" tomorrow if i so pleased, and you could do nothing about it.
it's throughout, though i suppose that could be a regional difference huh?
you ever stop to think about the everlasting effects of the dunning kruger effect? Yeah me neither. Good thing i'm not making any assertions on anything.
yet curiously, you defined it earlier as "grounds for genocide happening" weird how you slip in and out of frameworks isn't it? Almost as if my technical accuracy has tainted your restricted framework so much that you're working between two different frameworks entirely.
the fallacious fallacy is a good one. Curiously, i never stated that your argument was wrong due to use of fallacies, i just pointed out that you used fallacy commonly. Because fallacy is a rather weak rhetorical device that can almost always be applied retroactively due to the sheer amount of them out there. Your argument is wrong because it's fucking bad. Your entire argument rests on the basis of one statement being worded in a specific way, meaning something that it does not. The ONE argument that you have is that "according to the ICJ and UN courts, Israel has "committed genocide"" even though the rulings you cite do not fucking say that.
wow look, something i've agreed up three fucking times, from the first time you mentioned it.
please, demonstrate it. This would be libel if it weren't for the fact that you were demonstrably wrong.
And yet, curiously i've not once heard you mention anything else i've mentioned that would also count as genocide under your own definition of genocide.
hahaha
No. Not a fallacious fallacy. The fallacy from fallacy.
It's really hard to know whether you're actually so stupid you can't help but ignore things, or if it's something you do willfully. A mystery, truly.
Your English is fucking horrible man. How does it feel that I know your native language better than you do?
Oh, so, all these recorded crimes against humanity (aka 'war crimes', no need for a war for someone to do war crimes, silly), UN, OCHR and HRW reports, they're all "fallacy and trolling"?
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/crimes-against-humanity.shtml
https://www.icc-cpi.int/sites/default/files/2024-05/240520-panel-report-eng.pdf
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_war_crimes_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_the_Gaza_Strip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_schools_during_the_Israeli_invasion_of_Gaza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_health_facilities_during_the_Israel–Hamas_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_airstrikes_on_municipal_services_in_the_Gaza_Strip
UN Commission Finds Israel Guilty of Crimes Against Humanity
https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/a-hrc-56-26-auv.pdf
Tell me more about how you're supposedly not a pathetic genocide denier? Defending child slaughterers and rapists. You got so mad when confronted with what you're doing that you started stalking me and writing several page comments, while being completely unable to even address any of the material I'm linking from credible sources, only managing to monger "it's all trolling, it's all fallacy!"
That's a link to specifically the war crimes in this most recent conflict.
i'm trolling you, you're just stupid lmao. And no, it does work. It's just a different fallacy. It would be using a fallacy that is in it of itself, a fallacy, i.e. fallacious. The english language is stupid, so you could even argue that it's equivalent to "fallacy fallacy" because fallacious is just an extension of fallacy itself.
honestly i feel pretty good considering you still keep pulling shit out of your ass and doubling back on things you've already said trying to make a point that doesn't exist. It's funny how a dumbass on the internet that doesn't understand the english language can do a better job constructing your argument than someone who knows english can themselves. Also you don't even know if this my native language.
no, i agree that there are war crimes, the fallacy comes from the words that you type, not the words that other people wrote that you linked to, fascinatingly enough. You're the one fucking up their entire argument by completely mischaracterizing it. You have said so little things of value that you don't even have any examples of something you've said that's fallacious to use as an example.
you still refuse to address most of my statements of value, phishing for the easiest ones for you to target, while ignoring literally everything else i say.
You literally have no free will and your entire life is driven by some third party entity, which ironically, is not the papers you source to, because you don't even fucking cite them correctly.