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Explain that, science nerds!
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 04 Jul 2024
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I’ve literally had this argument on lemmy multiple times. It always goes like this:
Me: [some comment to the effect of “the planet is dying”]
Them: the planet will be fine. Yes all life will perish, but the earth itself will continue.
Me: . . .
Them: What. It’s just the fact. Don’t worry about the planet.
Sometimes they quote Carlin without realizing it and without context so to them it’s not a joke about how fucked up we are, it’s a simple truth without any additional layers. It's a little boggling.
It's pedantry for the sake of being right. They care more about winning than the actual argument.
This is why I detest the concept and celebration of “technically correct”. No, it’s not the “best kind of correct”, it’s being an asshole.
I mean, in the example you're responding to, many of the people aren't doing the "technically correct" answer of, "microbial life will continue".
They're just morons who heard, "life finds a way" and assume humans will be fine.
That's the joke, though.
The character being quoted, from Futurama, is usually insufferable and often miserable.
Edit: Interestingly, the character is also relatively well liked and generally appreciated by the rest of the Planet Express crew. It's a pretty nuanced quote, in context. It kind of says "You're not wrong, and your correction is arguably unnecessary and objectively objectionable, but we love you, anyway."
I dunno, maybe. I mean, technically they were right but even when I agreed, and explained how while that’s correct it’s also beside the point, they didn’t like that either.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It's not even pedantic. It's that same logic you could use to say killing a person does no harm to them because their body still exists afterward.
Why would all life perish? From what I've heard and read about nuclear disaster exclusion zones, humans disappearing tends to make space for other forms of life that had previously been displaced by cities full of humans and such. To my understanding long time life probably won't care about anything for the next few million years.
Short term many or most humans might die or suffer. I don't think it's easy to predict how fragile humankind is, civilization may crumble. I doubt all of humankind will be gone in a thousand years, though I wouldn't bet against a semi "post apocalyptic" future.
Basically it's due to the heat, acidification of the ocean, and the massive drop in oxygen production as the ocean acidifies.
Most of the oxygen we breathe is produced by microorganisms in the ocean and as the ocean gets more acidic (from absorbing CO2 from the air) and hotter (from greenhouse effects) it makes it harder for those little fellas to survive. And when they die their impact on our breathable air goes away. And if course the stuff that's eats those organisms no longer have food and due off.
That's not even mentioning just the heating from greenhouse effects making unlivable temperature conditions (humidity + heat = unable to cool down and overheat) more likely to occur.
All life wouldn't perish per se but the current complex animals we have (and us humans) would be greatly impacted to say the least.
Do I understand this right that the really big argument here is actually ocean acidification? I can't really believe that this wouldn't open up niches for other life forms in oceans. I'm certain that complex animals will be greatly impacted - they already are - but temperature shifts will lead to animals migrating and complex life will keep flourishing one way or another.
I feel as though the assumption that humans had the ability to kill all complex life like some people suggest is exaggerating the significance of humans. To my understanding humans have about the same impact as many other of the more impactful species do and while many have lead to big changes on the planet, to my knowledge none have managed to come close to "ending all life". That's reserved for grander desasters, either from inside Earth or extraterrestrial.
I didn't say it'd kill all complex life, I said complex life would be greatly impacted.
For example ocean acidification is tempered by reacting with build ups of calcium which is the building blocks of many things in the ocean. Shelled critters and corals immediately come to mind as examples of directly impacted complex life.
As the corals die and can no longer form due to acidification that whole ecosystem collapses.
The stuff that eats the phytoplankton (sensitive to ocean acidification and heat) no longer can eat it due to it dying along with the other little micro organisms, also suffers from ecological collapse.
A big issue that impacts complex life is how quickly it can adapt to the changes in their ecosystem and if they can find new places to go or new things to eat.
For example E. Coli: it has quick generations so it can adapt really quickly. This experiment has been going since the late 80s and the E. Coli has gone through over 70,000 generations and they've seen a lot of changes. If you went back that many human generations it would take you back before modern homo sapiens.
True! I tried to acknowledge that with my first paragraph and add that they already are greatly impacted. My second paragraph wasn't aimed at your person, I merely wanted to bring it up/let it out.
It absolutely is. There are microbes that thrive at the bottom of the ocean in the boiling acidic conditions of hydrothermal vents. There is absolutely no way anything humans can do at this point would kill ALL life on the planet. There will absolutely be some specialist microbe somewhere that looks at whatever we did to the planet and says 'yup, now is my time to shine!'.
Just a heads up, you quoted me writing "kill all complex life (...) is exaggerating". Then as far as I understand you wrote "it absolutely is [an exaggeration]". Then you argued that surely microbes would survive. However, to my knowledge microbes do not count as complex life. Was that intentional?
I wasn't trying to prove what would survive, merely show how resilient life can be. If a simple microbe is guaranteed to survive in hell, something more complex able to behaviourally adapt/relocate is likely to as well. The greatest danger to complex life is having nothing to feed on.
Tropical fish might have to survive in the Arctic Ocean, or grasses in the northern prairies, insects of a zillion different types and sizes. Life, uh, finds a way.
We won't kill everything. No matter what we do. Life will continue and more of it than anyone thinks will, even of the plants and animals. It is humans and most of the large animals and intolerant plants that need fear the impending Climate catastrophe.
There’s a chance that the aluminum residue from hundreds of annual rocket launches will destroy the ozone layer, without which the earth will lose its atmosphere relatively quickly.
*the aluminum is from all of our satellites burning up on reentry, which makes way more sense.
What?
The aluminum and other metals in the space crafts bond with the ozone, which could fuck with our magnetosphere. It turns out it’s mostly from satellites burning up on reentry, which makes way more sense though.
Because the threat is not a nuclear winter. It’s the disruption of all environmental systems that regulate the planet that is the threat in question. Which, in turn, disrupts the food chain, which starves whatever requires that food, which is for all intents and purposes, all life.
I don’t understand how this is such a conversation with so many people here.
All life wouldn't perish, the only things that will be left will be certain bacteria, phagocytes and viruses that can tolerate and indeed will likely proliferate in extreme environments. Everything larger then that will die of starvation due to a cascade of failing systems, likely starting with the death of the marine biosphere when the temperature rises to unsustainable levels and/or the pH lowers too much for the same effect. Though of course no one really knows what will actually happen because there are too many unknown variables.
Climate change isn't going to be an existential threat for a very long time. Realistically we're making life incredibly difficult and expensive for ourselves. Population numbers will drop markedly over time. But people don't see that this is still something to take urgent action on.
Depends on if you work outside for a living or live near a coastline or a forested area. It won’t be like a Star Trek: The Original Series where everyone’s in a big room and a red glow starts pulsating and we all groan and crumple to the floor. No, it won’t be like that.
It’ll be like heat exhaustion exacerbated a hitherto unknown heart condition that deaded you. Or a Cat 6 hurricane rolled a tree over you. Or failing crops mean you couldn’t fight off COVID-26 or whatever.
No, we’re not going to all die at once, as such. Depending on your timeframe for “at once”.
It'll be like Katrina. Probably in Florida at first. Probably in the next ten years. Probably more than once.
Replied to the wrong comment.
Ok, let the downvotes come but I’m one of those people. And the point I’m trying to make is that the planet and life itself will survive and probably even be better off without humans.
Just look at what happened after the extinction event that killed the dinosaurs. Humans are causing the next extinction event and afterwards life will just start fresh again.
So no, saving the planet is not the goal. Saving humanity and most of all other current life is. And if that’s what you want to accomplish then that’s what you should talk about, specifically.
How are you defining “life itself”?
I’d say that goes without saying.
Start “fresh”? Like with single-celled organisms? Maybe a billion years later we’ll be back eating sandwiches? Okay, so what process created sustainable environments again? Humans left some sort-of-permanent damage. Nuclear waste, PFAS, etc. Sure a good ol’ pole shift and a few asteroid impacts and we’re back in business.
God this is fucking exhausting. The prevention of unmitigated and prolonged suffering by all sentient life is the goal, YES. Kudos to the possibly viable future space rock and the wisdom to acknowledge our utter inability to protect one single planet from ourselves is laughably inadequate and - CLEARLY - irrelevant.
IMO, it is a distinction that is worthwhile. The universe is not anthropocentric. It doesn't give two shits about humanity (it's not, to our knowledge even sentient). Humanity is completely insignificant to nearly anything but humans. To me, it puts into perspective that noone and nothing in this indifferent universe is coming to save us from ourselves. It's up to us.
Life will continue without us, just like it did before us. If the entirety of the world's nuclear arsenals are used, there's a good chance that microbes like Deinococus radiodurans will survive to evolve into new forms of complex life. The human species is far more fragile than the planet.
What distinction, pointing out that the existing astronomical and mineralogical structures will withstand even our worst impulses? Or changing “Saving the planet” to “slowing our inevitable dissolution due to corrupt thinking and possibly saving some ducks, too”?
The distinction is already very well known - as we can see, people drive for hundreds of miles so they can hop out and tell us the actual physical structure of Earth will remain, most likely. It’s the insistence on focusing on that distinction which slows our ability to talk about the core causes for this climate disaster. And it sounds a lot like the previous 100 years of:
Now you’re just lobbing together people who want to distinguish what exactly it is that needs saving with climate change deniers, conspiracy theorists and antivaxxers. Seems to me you just like boxes, really big boxes, in which to put in all the thing you dislike/disagree with or whatever.
You don’t care that I disagree with almost everything on your list except for 2 things that I think are really important to be specific about.
Be my guest, I don’t care enough to continue this conversation beyond this point with a hammer that’s just looking for nails.
My whole complaint is that “Saving the planet” is intended to be a simple way to bring up the many, many things humans need to change to reverse our destructive path. They’re all implied in that.
By arguing a million more specific points instead (“well the rocks will still be here”, “actually, personal water consumption is a factor. . .”) is weakening the purpose of using that phrase. If I wanted to promote water conservation, I wouldn’t say “Let’s save the planet”, I’d say “let’s conserve water”.
The OP meme is about just that - showing the absurdity of arguing a single aspect of planetary destruction in order to - ?? In order to do what - Promote geological sciences? Dismiss environmental concerns? (This is my main gripe, fwiw.) Be cool and aloof? Scoring internet hot take points?
It’s all a ridiculous exercise in - well, exactly what we see here: Many comments pointing out obvious - and therefore pointless - exceptions to our species’ unconscionable destruction of the only habitat anyone has ever known. It’s just exhausting.
Y'all acting like this happening isn't a literal catastrophe. You guys are all insane.
Yeah, this is also what I usually mean when I say "Earth will be fine".
It's also true. It's a great way to bring home the reality to people who still think climate science is about preserving some wetlands while we continue as normal.
Even life will never perish. We're certainly going to cause an apocalyptic level extinction event, taking many species with us, but life will always find a way.
Likely as slimy mats on the floor of what's left of the ocean. Also whatever's left in hot-springs and caves.
I'm sure the archaea in the salt flats will adapt too
not even all life. i'm sure some microbe or spore will survive long enough past human extenction and life will flourish once again. there are some very robust little lifeforms out there, living in boiling volcanic water or surviving frozen in permafrost. i'm sure some can manage in high CO2 levels and hot climate.
Life existed long before there were any significant levels of oxygen in the air. I doubt humans can undo much of the ~20% oxygen level that exists today. And I think that's reason enough that life even bigger than microbes won't die out.
sigh
Yes.
I don't know, whenever I hear such arguing it makes me feel like it emphasises the issues we as humanity have gotten into, not belittles.
I mean, hearing "everything is doomed" is kind of epic and has it's charm. Hearing "only the humanity is doomed" makes me feel shitty and want to do something about that.
tangentially related, CW: suicide
Probably the same way one of the suicide prevention methods is de-romanticization of death, a lot of people expect death to be pretty, and it's not‘Everything is doomed’ is epic and has charm, but ‘humanity is doomed’ moves you to action.
Okay. I mean. Whatever gets the action i guess.
Epic and has charm?? I don’t . . . Its . .
Remember how everyone was expecting the end of the world in 2012, kind of like that.
I personally don't find it romantic anymore
everyone*
*Exceptions may apply