submitted 1 week ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

Multiple parties are jockeying for position in the aftermath of France's seismic snap election. The leftist New Popular Front (NPF) insists its ideas should be implemented.

France's left wing New Popular Front (NPF) - now the largest group in parliament - has called for a prime minister who will implement its ideas including a new wealth tax and petrol price controls.

The leftist alliance secured the most seats in the recent French elections but fell short of the 289 needed for a majority in the National Assembly, France's lower house of parliament.

President Emmanuel Macron's Together bloc came in second and Marine Le Pen's far-right National Rally (RN) party finished third.

France's parties are now jockeying for position and it's unclear exactly how things will shake out, but the NPF has insisted it will implement its radical set of ideas.

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[-] unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 213 points 1 week ago

a new 90% tax on any annual income above €400,000

Lmao. Probably not gonna happen but based af

[-] Plopp@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

Even if they do implement such tax, I wonder how many ways there are for rich people to avoid paying those taxes. They tend to be very good at skirting around such things. They even pay people who are professionals in the field of tax-around-skirting.

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 121 points 1 week ago

I think it's a great target to aim for. That's an unfathomable income to most people, so it should at least have popular support

[-] SomethingBurger@jlai.lu 39 points 1 week ago

It will not. People will vehemently defend the rich.

[-] bassomitron@lemmy.world 40 points 1 week ago

Some will, but there's an ever growing movement against gross wealth inequality. When simply buying groceries becomes a struggle for more and more people, that's usually a telltale sign that the working class is going to start getting angry at the insatiable greed of those at the top.

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[-] fluxion@lemmy.world 40 points 1 week ago

Worked fine in America during it's "great" days that all these Trump voters seem to yearn for

[-] Passerby6497@lemmy.world 28 points 1 week ago

Funny how they want to 'mAkE aMeRiCa GrEaT aGaIn' but don't want any of the policies that made America great, just the shitty racist ones that made life awful for non-white males. I'm just waiting for them to further limit it by land holding or wealth at some point..... Really take us back to when we were 'really great'

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[-] twistypencil@lemmy.world 34 points 1 week ago

Love it. Wealthy in France is 200k, anyone who makes over 400k is uberwealthy

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[-] kibiz0r@midwest.social 102 points 1 week ago

Honestly, they should probably leave income alone and just double down on the wealth tax.

Wage-based taxation has always been an awkward way to target the rich.

I have very different feelings about someone from a poor background who went into massive debt to develop their skills and become a top earner vs. someone who inherited a fortune and doesn’t put any effort beyond checking their bank balance periodically.

Plus, there is the “won’t they just leave?” argument. Which is mostly FUD, but in the case where someone’s wealth is based on their skilled labor they do have a much easier time just leaving. If your wealth is from owning a portfolio of apartment buildings, good luck taking those with you.

[-] BakerBagel@midwest.social 17 points 1 week ago

Does no one here understand how incone taxes work? The 90% rate is on annual income over €400,000. Average annual income in France was €41,000.

[-] NounsAndWords@lemmy.world 58 points 1 week ago

I think the guy you're responding to is more talking about the distinction between income and capital gains, with income making up far less of the wealthy's worth than existing investments.

But yes, a lot of people also have no concept of how tax brackets work.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 10 points 1 week ago

Right. Someone with a networth of many millions may only have a yearly income of $100k. Sometimes far less. Different tax systems can also have different definitions of income. Is inheritance income? Are growth stocks that you haven't cashed in yet income? Are stock dividends income? You can answer yes or no to any of these, but however you answer, you can still structure the tax system around those answers to come to an equitable arrangement.

[-] Dyf_Tfh@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 1 week ago

The end result is that basically no one will be subject to this tax bracket.

It is high enough that everyone at that level will mainly get their real income from stock/loan which aren't salaries.

Having this tax bracket or not having it is, basically the same for the super wealthy. The real method to tax them is through capital tax, not income.

[-] Evotech@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago

The moving part is very real for the ultra rich in Europe.

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 86 points 1 week ago

I will enjoy hearing about how the rich will just move away from their fancy mansions on the Riviera and their suites in Paris to avoid paying this tax and then seeing it not happen.

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 20 points 1 week ago

Some of them, sure, but I wonder how many would consider it worth the price. This is an income taxe I'm assuming, so it's not like they'd lose out on actual wealth, investments, etc.

It might be worth it if even just half stay and pay the taxe.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 30 points 1 week ago

That was my point- they won't leave. They like living there too much. That's just always the excuse when such taxes are proposed for not doing them. "The rich will all just leave."

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[-] Snapz@lemmy.world 81 points 1 week ago

"Radical set of ideas"

Rational set of ideas.

[-] FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today 21 points 1 week ago

Radical means change or far from the norm, so when the system we live in is crazy then radical often is rational. The terms are not opposed.

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[-] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 58 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

a new 90% tax on any annual income above €400,000 (£337,954)

Sexy, but as other commenters mentioned before, taxing existing wealth is more sexy

[-] rustydrd@sh.itjust.works 18 points 1 week ago

That's true, but taxing wealth is significantly harder than taxing income or financial transactions (including inheritances).

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[-] Buelldozer@lemmy.today 49 points 1 week ago

Sounds great, now how are they proposing to tax the wealthy. You know, those people who have a jet set lifestyle but no income to tax?

[-] jj4211@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago

The answer would be of course they have income, and we have to adequately recognize it as such.

Borrowing money against stocks? Income. Capital gains on high value or nonessential assets (e.g. non-primary residences and stock)? Income.

Actual money has to come in at some point to manifest that lifesytyle and that is obviously income.

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[-] noevidenz@infosec.pub 44 points 1 week ago

This is a bit of a misleading summary.

Melenchon speaks for his own party, France Unbowed (LFI), not the entire NFP alliance.

The NFP as a whole has not declared support for Melenchon's position, although his party controls 71 (~41%) of NFP's 180 seats in the National Assembly.

Macron has already indicated that he will not allow Melenchon to become Prime Minister, and the entire NFP will be aware that they must select a more moderate leader to represent them if they expect to gain enough support from the centre to operate as a minority government.

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[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 26 points 1 week ago

To be clear the 90% tax is an income tax, which is actually not unprecedented as other commenters note. Melenchon has talked about 100% but I guess the other parties negotiated him down.

[-] englislanguage@lemmy.sdf.org 13 points 1 week ago

Actually, 90% income tax for the top incomes was common in western countries in the 50s.

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[-] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 21 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

The real problem isn't the income the rich receive, it's their tax avoidance methods that never show up as any income. This effectively puts a barrier on anyone who isn't being a scummy shithead from ever reaching their level, it creates a safe harbor for billionaires to laugh from at anyone who ever reaches their level of influence, power, and wealth and might become their competitor if they do not do so in the manner of their oligarchic decades of experience within their inner circle.

This only convinces idiots, and is about as cluelessly meaningless populist legislation as anything fooling far right fascists. Literally ask yourself, who is the rich, because I can guarantee you it will only affect anyone from low to middle income classes who manage to find any wealth without seeking the horde of tax lobbyists true billionaires have.

Case in point, want to know what "rich" is for this piece of legislation? 90% tax on anyone who happens to earn above €400,000 (£337,954) for that year. I doubt this will even affect people earning above €400,000 every year because they have enough wealth and experience with paying the sort of tax advisors that will help orient them into tax avoidance. Billionaires are laughing at this measure.

I would not be surprised if this suggesting could be traced back to "think tanks" coming with this sort of bullshit that only caters and convinces the ignorant while shielding the actually rich. I realize most people will see this as a good thing because they see this as affecting "the rich", but it really and truly does nothing against the real problem, and I would not even mind it if it wasn't a sign that nothing will be done about billionaire and corporate tax avoidance schemes and that they are only trying to cater to a sentiment.

[-] BlueMagma@sh.itjust.works 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Have you seen the word "income"anywhere here ? ISF (Impôt sur la fortune) is tax on wealth, this law would say that if someone is rich we take some of its money. We use to have it in France before Macron removed it. Also the same leftist group is advocating for more funding towards fighting tax evasion amongst the wealthy.

EDIT: my bad the article does talk about income tax, point still stand, NFP still advocate for the ISF

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[-] boredtortoise@lemm.ee 15 points 1 week ago

Hell yes. Finally policy suggestions which make sense. Autocratphiles masquerading as communists are mad at this turn of events??

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[-] steeznson@lemmy.world 12 points 1 week ago

Back in the 50s and 60s after WW2 the UK had a 95% tax band for the highest earners. This was due to the country struggling to pay off its debts to the USA after WW2. The Beatles even wrote their song Taxman about it in 1966.

Ultimately there is a problem with these super high taxbands whereby countries that try them will often encounter something called the Laffer Curve whereby overall tax take decreases as the tax rate increases. This isn't even necessarily tax evasion, all it takes is for wealthy people to be suitably motivated to avoid taxes.

In the UK now if your income breaches £100k then you are paying a higher rate of tax on everything earned over that amount but also you lose the £12.5k tax free allowance that all citizens are entitled to. Overall breaching £100k leads to you paying a marginal rate of tax of 60% even if you don't earn much over it. Because of this high earning jobs often let you put money into salary sacrifice pension schemes to avoid breaching the £100k mark. It only becomes worthwhile earning over £100k when you reach the region of ~£130k, which is substantially more. Essentially the system encourages tax avoidance by having this cliff which people who are behaving like rational agents will do anything to avoid. If it were less punative then some economists argue that the government would raise more money.

[-] awesome_lowlander@lemmy.dbzer0.com 36 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

That's just a bad implementation, then. Tax brackets are progressive for a reason, having a cliff like that should be an obvious no no.

Not to say you don't have a point, because you do, but the govt could fix that particular issue very easily.

[-] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 22 points 1 week ago

That's uh.... pretty fucking dumb.

How the fuck did anyone think a cliff like that would be smart.

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[-] marble@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 week ago

You make it sound like a cliff, but you lose £1 of the £12.5k allowance for every £2 over £100k you earn. You don't suddenly lose the whole allowance at £100,001.

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[-] johny@feddit.org 10 points 1 week ago

Macron would probably sooner dissolve the republic and declare the third empire than allow this to happen, but I wish the NPF good luck.

As Macron likes to say: “Souverän ist, wer über den Ausnahmezustand entscheidet

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this post was submitted on 10 Jul 2024
1121 points (98.9% liked)

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