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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by SteelBeard@lemmy.world to c/youshouldknow@lemmy.world

Why YSK: Beehaw defederated from Lemmy.World and Sh.itjust.works effectively shadowbanning anyone from those instances. You will not be able to interact with their users or posts.

Edit: A lot of people are asking why Beehaw did this. I want to keep this post informational and not color it with my personal opinion. I am adding a link to the Beehaw announcement if you are interested in reading it, you can form your own views. https://beehaw.org/post/567170

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[-] Boozilla@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago

It's important to note that the admins of beehaw are not happy about this solution, either. And they hope to refederate once they have better tools and enough mods / admins to deal with it.

They point wasn't to shadowban, that was a side effect. The point was to protect their member--who specifically wanted a certain type of safe friendly instance--from hostile weirdos sending dick pics and stuff like that. Nobody's happy with the situation, but it's the best they could do under the circumstances with the resources they have.

I also don't think it's wrong for instances to have their own strong rules and preferences. This is one of the GOOD things about the Fediverse. The software features and how people use lemmy will catch up eventually.

As for the confusion / chaos around multiple/redundant/competing communities and so on...that will get better over time as people figure things out. Honestly it's not that different than reddit with all of its splinter subs like "true-" whatever.

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[-] LeZero@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago

It's getting pretty tiring to see people feeling entitled to have access to any and all communities of the Fediverse, if the people paying for the running cost of the Beehaw instance wants to defederate (for whatever reason, "good" or "bad"), that's their prerogative.

If you really want access to their content, apply to join, otherwise sign up to any of the dozens of lemmy instances federated to the rest of the fediverse.

One of the great things about the Fediverse in general is choice, user and instance admin can choose how they want to interact, and are not beholden to a company or group which can take any arbitrary decisions they want.

TLDR : Instance admin are entitled to how they want to run it, you're not.

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[-] Kittybeer@lemm.ee 38 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Newbie here. Is there an easy way to identify a beehaw community? I've been hitting the subscribe button left and right to build up my profile feed and I'm just winging it here. thanx!

[-] setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago

The community name will end in “@beehaw”.

If you go to the community search bar and search for say, “gaming” you’ll get multiple results. The one that’s just “gaming” is your home instance, any with an “@instancename” behind them are from elsewhere.

[-] Kittybeer@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago

okay, that makes it easy. Thanx for replying!

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[-] lightrush@lemmy.ca 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

@SteelBeard@lemmy.world , you should add a link to the announcement which explains why Beehaw defederated since this looks to be the top question many are asking.

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[-] rimlogger@lemmy.world 33 points 1 year ago

Wow so much misinformed hostility against Beehaw here. The mod tools for Lemmy are currently limited and they just want to protect their community from trolls and spam. There's no conspiracy here to break federation.

[-] CorruptBuddha@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Beehaw is some pseudo moral purity echo chamber. They consider anyone with a contrary opinion a troll. People create these "safe spaces" under the guise of protecting minority groups, but fuck.. I'm a minority, and I knew immediately I wasn't going to be welcome there.

People are free to judge it as they please.

--edit--

Why aren't other instances having this problem? Like if trolls and spam are such an issue, why do I only see relevant on topic comments in other instances?

The issue isn't trolls, it's political dissent. And if you care about the truth, if you care about having the ability to talk about and express your ideas freely to other people, to have uncomfortable discussions with people you disagree with, to be exposed to new ideas, and fuck.. to possibly even change your mind, you shouldn't support beehaw.

If you genuinely want that type of environment, go for it, but that place should be called out for what it is.

This type of political authoritianism is why I left Reddit. It kills discussion, and I'm here for critical discussion.

[-] Elkaki123@vlemmy.net 12 points 1 year ago

Why would you not be welcome? Is it for your political opinions? Even if it were, I don't think they would personally shun you unless it entails attacking minorities.

That aside, and having said that of course it is everyone's perrogative to judge this behavior, I personally feel it is an exaggeration. Not every instance is about free speech nor should they be, at the end of the day the fediverse is about creating communities, one is able and should shape them into what their vision of that is. This is not authoritarianism, in this case they said it is due to their inability to moderate.

Even if it weren't for that, it is good that communities don't federate with every instance, aa I said, not everyone is about free speech and changing opinions some are here to have a good time and for that adequate protection is necessary.

I myself prefer deciding myself when to block other instances, so I joined one that let's users decide. But if other instances decided to block us I would understand and either move on or join another instance to interact with them without thinking much about it (having multiple accounts is kind of easy on the apps,)

I think I'm kind of used from servers blocking one another from my time on mastodon and I've seen the necessity of the practice, for example an anime focused group blocking bot instances, brigading, alt right groups, etc.

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[-] DarkWasp@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Beehaw lost me when admins allowed a female user to repeatedly insult men, say 95% of them are awful, that men shouldn’t even exist etc they claim they’re a “safe, welcoming space” but it’s actually hypocritical.

They defederated from this and other instances and yet I’ve never seen any comments reaching that level of hostility here. The only way to interpret that is that they actually are okay with insults and bigotry as long as it suits their whims. If a man had made the same remarks it’d be written off as the rantings of an incel and they’d likely be banned.

I should be their target audience as someone who has voted left my entire life and it’s too much and too controlled for me. Either they’re for all equality and inclusiveness or they’re not. Pick one.

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Okay, guess I just won't use it then if they defed from my primary instance. Glad they did this now and not later when they became bigger and more important.

If they're that into making a safe space then fine. Hopefully some other people will also make more free spaces and both of them can exist and everyone can be happy.

I realize that is a highly optimistic outlook to put it mildly. I must remain hopeful to avoid losing my mind, if I haven't already -.-

[-] SpicaNucifera@lemm.ee 37 points 1 year ago

shrugs It sounds like they'd happily refederate once the right mod tools are available.

Seems like a pretty reasonable request. Hopefully they get the tools they're after and then everyone can be even more connected again!

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[-] Damaniel@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago

And this is why the fediverse will never work out - if I gamble wrong and set up shop on an instance that gets in a pissing match with other ones, I either have to make an account elsewhere (and then have to do it again later the next time two instances defederate each other) or live with only seeing some of my subscribed content.

[-] theDoctorJtD@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There are already conversations about Nomadic Identities and what that would look like. Until that is done, I agree with you that there are going to be some issues, such as this. The fact that this is on their radar is very promising.

https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy-ui/issues/1571

[-] PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@vlemmy.net 23 points 1 year ago

set up shop on an instance

Don't do that. You probably should have multiple accounts on different instances. If you really need a continuous, single identity, post links to all your usernames in each.

This is why the move from Reddit was so difficult for Redditors: because we put all our eggs into Reddit Inc's basket. All our content is under Reddit's control. This analysis can be applied to any centralized social media service. If your instance shits the bed or bans itself from everyone else, you can move somewhere else. You can start your own in the worst case. It's annoying, but at least there is a real path to move on.

We shouldn't be putting our eggs in any one basket. We shouldn't have been doing it before the Fediverse, and we shouldn't be doing it here either. Your social media access should not be dependent on the goodwill of one person or entity. Eventually, that entity will corrupt.

Also, I'm on vlemmy.net. Right now, they haven't defederated from anyone, and I believe we're still not banned from Beehaw or anyone else. If you really want the whole Fediverse (and you probably don't), make an account on vlemmy or one of the top three instances on this page.

Why don't you have a second account?

Lazy. Don't care if my shit gets fucked. But if you do care if your shit gets fucked, then you shouldn't rely on centralized social media.

[-] jupy@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

this is why i plan to host my own federated instance - no pissing matches can be had, and i can federate with any larger ones that i like/pick up steam.

[-] whoisearth@infosec.pub 17 points 1 year ago

I'm genuinely curious of a real answer on this as I have the same concerns having registered on InfoSec.pub. Apparently signing up there means I am locked to that community? What happens to my account if they shutter? It's not like I can login using Lemmy.ca as my community.

As cool as this is, it's not fully thought through IMHO. There's a reason centralization tends to occur naturally. We are already seeing that with people in droves showing up on lemmy.world. for that matter who owns the instances? I'm lazy I'll get around to digging more eventually but right now this is a curiousity.

[-] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 year ago

Apparently signing up there means I am locked to that community?

There is a feature request to allow accounts to be transferred to other instances. So that's in the works.

We are already seeing that with people in droves showing up on lemmy.world. for that matter who owns the instances?

Someone that's not spez.

There's no such thing as a perfect system that shitty people can't fuck up in some way. All that can be done is to mitigate the damage on shitty person can do. So yeah, if the instance you're on gets taken over by assholes, it's going to be a problem. But it will be less of a problem if you're on a centralized system that gets taken over by an asshole.

Case in point: beehaw is an instance that hosts a lot of LGBTQ communities. The influx of new users comes with an influx of new assholes. The kind of assholes that say shitty things to people in the LGBTQ+ community. On a centralized system they'd either have to accept those slurs or move to some other centralized system. But on lemmy, they have the option of temporarily disconnecting from the instances that have had an influx of assholes.

It's a growing pains kind of thing really.Most of the new users aren't assholes, and some of the new users will step up and become mods and the assholes will be removed. But until then, some smaller instances are going to batten down the hatches until the storm passes.

Lemmy offers options like this that a centralized system doesn't have. Does having additional options make a system worse?

[-] MrEUser@lemmy.ninja 12 points 1 year ago

This argument is absurd. What happens, right now, if Reddit shuts down? Where can you take your account to access what’s on Reddit?

The fact is federations CAN be set up this way. Lemmy is new and the people providing the service are working to get things functional as fast as possible. Federating authentication is possible. Can you do it right this second? Nope.

Can you do it with Reddit right this second?

“I’m not gonna do this because it doesn’t work the way I think it should.” News flash, Reddit doesn’t work that way either, while you’re not doing it on Reddit…. Lemmy CAN work that way, Reddit… yah good luck.

I get it, mediocrity now is better than improvements later…

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[-] Damaniel@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

And it's extra shitty because Beehaw has the largest technology community in the fediverse, so if you want to access it you better make sure you're a member of one of their 'blessed' federated friends.

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[-] 5BC2E7@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

I think it has positives. and the negatives can be adressed with new features like a federated identity . something that could allow you to keep accounts on multiple servers combining subscriptions deduping content and letting you control what user to use to interact.

[-] t0e@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

This splintering of communities can be a drawback, but it can also be a blessing. Instead of having one account where I do all my social media things, I've been categorizing the types of social media I enjoy and creating an account for each category, on the instance that feels closest to that type of media. It's kind of nice because I know exactly what kind of content subscriptions I'm going to see when I switch to each account. It's also nice to be able to comment on things and know that people who look at my history will see comments on similar topics. Someone's opinion on my comments about politics, for example, won't be colored by my recent comments about extraterrestrials in a different community.

There is some risk of being part of a community that might disappear someday, or become something you don't like, but that's a risk present in all social media. As another commenter mentioned, the advantage here is that you can set up your own instance where you can control your own data. It's actually going to be beneficial that a lot of people do this, so that the fediverse as a whole can handle everyone's traffic without operation costs ballooning beyond control for any individual instance.

But a consequence of this is the creation of many small communities about the same topics, spread across many instances. I think we will need to create some method of federating many communities across many instances in a categorical way. For example, if I want to see all communities about cooking across all instances, there would need to be some decentralized method of tagging communities by topic. That way you don't have to decide which community is most representative of what you want to see. And there could be many tags for each community, so if I want to see only videos about only cooking, where only vegan food is shown, there may be a community that ranks high in all those tags.

Instead of subscribing to the community itself, you would just subscribe to the tag, creating a virtual subscription to all the contained communities. You'd be able to see all the communities for your selected topic(s) across the whole lemmyverse. And if you see a community that you think does not belong to something that it's been tagged with, you can unsubscribe it from the tag so it doesn't show in that list for you. If more people do the same, that community would fall in ranking on that tag list until eventually it is taken off. But if people upvote content from that community more than communities higher in the ranking, that community would rise in the tag list.

I'm not sure if others would be interested in a system like this, but in my mind, it is the kind of thing we need to have rich curated content at low cost. Okay, I'm done now.

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[-] rainpoint@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago

this is completely reasonable, they own the instance and should be able to do whatever they want with it.

[-] Firebat@lemmy.fmhy.ml 14 points 1 year ago

OP didn't say it was wrong. Just a tip.

[-] pattmayne@sh.itjust.works 22 points 1 year ago

Is there a page where we can see which instances are ban-crazy and which ones actually federate and communicate?

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[-] krackalot@vlemmy.net 19 points 1 year ago

If you don't want to color with your opinion, use a different word than shadowban. They didn't do this with malice as the connotations of that word would imply.

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[-] arayvenn@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

This is a bit of a bummer since I'm interested in a lot of the beehaw communities. Should users just make separate accounts to interact with beehaw communities?

[-] eee@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

a lot of the beehaw communities have alternatives in the rest of the lemmyverse. while I can participate in beehaw communities, i personally found it more useful to just block all beehaw communities (so I don't accidentally post there) and participate in the non-beehaw communities so I'm interacting with the majority of the fediverse.

most of the other instances are low-drama and don't have issues with defederating/shadowbanning like beehaw does!

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[-] kale@lemmy.zip 9 points 1 year ago

I was under the impression that when Beehaw chose to defederate, it only broke the community link. I thought that someone on lemmy.world could still see the local cached versions of posts, and could even continue posting content. However, only lemmy.world users would see the new comments as the local cache isn't pushed back to the Beehaw post.

What I'm still unclear on is if sh.itjust.works users could see lemmy.world posts to a cached Beehaw post. My guess is no, right? If Beehaw was still federated, the Lemmy.world user post would be synced to the Beehaw post, and then this would be synced to the sh.itjust.works local cache. Is there a mesh feature to Lemmy? Where the local cache of sh.itjust.works will sync comments from the local cache of lemmy.world comments to a beehaw post?

[-] icepuncher69@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nice. Its been just 2 days for me using lemmy and im already banned for no reason in an entire server that i do not use just because im in another server. I whana say reddit moment but im getting mixed info into their reasoning. Some say its because they cant mod that much people and just defederated temporarilly while they fix stuff and others say their a radical echochamber that doesnt tolerate any slight deviants. So i dont know what to believe. If any of ya m8s could enligthen me some more that'l be sweet. Thank you.

[-] ratamacue@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 1 year ago

Most normal users won't care about any of this because it'll shake itself out quickly as has happened with Mastodon. But if you do care, join up with a smaller server that plays nice with everybody and enjoy the whole fediverse.

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this post was submitted on 01 Jul 2023
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