this post was submitted on 21 Feb 2025

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The state of conversational contexts (February 2025) (community.nodebb.org)

submitted 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) by julian@community.nodebb.org to c/forum-wg@community.nodebb.org

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A conversational context is what the ForumWG uses to describe what you might see as a reply tree or comment thread. One of the short-to-medium term goals of the ForumWG is to get conversational backfill working reliably.

What this means — conversational backfill means that when you encounter a post/status/note/etc. (e.g. you're mentioned or boosted/shared something), there is a reliable and comprehensive way to retrieve the entire conversation around it, so you are not interacting with the object on its own, but in its proper context with all its sibling replies.

We plan to achieve this with a combination of a top-down (FEP-driven) and bottom-up (implementor-first) approach. While this sounds incongruent, top-down approaches tend to overcomplicate and bottom-up approaches tend to violate the protocol (unintentionally of course :joy:.)

There are a number of independent top-down efforts to achieve this:

These FEPs are in the R&D phase.

State of the Top-Down approach

At this time, the ForumWG is only recommending the following:

Publishers SHOULD use context for grouping related objects in a thread (but this is not the only way to use context).

There is general agreement over:

A context SHOULD resolve to a resource.

There are concerns over:

What that resource is (as:OrderedCollection, a new type, something else?)
What is included in that context (plain objects or activities)

State of the Bottom-Up approach

The bottom-up approach is results-oriented, and while certain implementors may follow certain FEPs, the overarching goal is "cross-compatible conversational backfill".

Separately, these implementors are (or have signalled interest in) implementing conversational backfill:

FEP 7888
- NodeBB (@julian) and Discourse (@angusmcleod@mastodon.social)
  - Attaches context to objects
  - context resolves to an OrderedCollection containing objects
  - Two-way conversation backfill is tested and working (7888 only).
- WordPress (@pfefferle@mastodon.social) and Frequency (@jesseplusplus@mastodon.social)
  - Attaches context to objects
  - context resolves to an OrderedCollection containing objects
  - Outgoing conversational backfill is tested and working — others can backfill an entire conversation from these implementors.
- Lemmy (@nutomic@lemmy.ml) and PieFed (@rimu@mastodon.nzoss.nz)
  - Have signalled interest (neither positive nor negative) in conversational backfill and are waiting and watching at this time.
FEP 171b
- Mitra (@silverpill@mitra.social)
  - Attaches context to activities
  - context resolves to an OrderedCollection containing activities
  - Incoming conversational backfill is tested and working — Mitra can backfill an entire conversation from FEP 7888 and 171b implementors (:tada: nice!)
- Hubzilla (@scott@authorship.studio) and Streams (@mikedev@fediversity.site)
  - Attaches context to activities
  - context resolves to an OrderedCollection containing activities
  - Outgoing conversational backfill is tested and working (against Mitra)

What's Next

This thread will likely contain updates and discussion from related parties about their implementations and what they wish to do next. In the cruelest irony of ironies, because conversational backfill is not ubiquitous yet, you will need to "View Original URL" in order to see all of the replies.

The ForumWG will meet again on 6 March 13h00 EST where all of this will be discussed, as well as planning out the future focus items for the ForumWG.

If you are an implementor, there is no reason you cannot join the fray. Boost this post, reply to it, join the conversation(al context)!!

If you're not an implementor, boost me anyway :stuck_out_tongue:

top 24 comments

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[–] mario@hub.somaton.com 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

@julian Hubzilla internally backfills via context. Has done so all along. Activitypub content is so far backfilled via inReplyTo traversal and the replies collection.

[–] julian@community.nodebb.org 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

@mario@hub.somaton.com when you say "internally backfills", I'm assuming you mean between Hubzilla instances?

Is this done via context containing activities, or objects?

Edit: Cursory examination suggests you're following 171b, serving activities.

[–] mario@hub.somaton.com 1 points 2 weeks ago

@julian right between Hubzilla.

context currently serves activities. But we are in the process of moving to contextHistory.

[–] panos@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago

IIRC @kopper@brain.d.on-t.work implemented backfill on Iceshrimp.net, maybe they wanna share their approach.

[–] eeeee@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Very complicated all this Fediverse stuff! Far from the dream of having one account for everything, I seemed to need an account on every service to get the whole picture. I have now Nodebb, Mastodon, Lemmy, PixelFed and Peertube! I dont know if Im just not using it properly, or if seeing everything from any one of these site is even possible? @julian how far off is the prospect of using my nodebb account for all Federated chat, is that even achievable in long term?

[–] kichae@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

@eeeee From this website, you can follow almost any user account you want on almost any Mastodon-, Lemmy-, mbin-, PixelFed-, Misskey- (and its forks), Hometown-, Friendica-, Hubzilla-, or Mitra-based website, barring a few minor obstacles (neither side needs to have blocked the other, neither side needs to have disabled federation, and the user you're following needs to have not blocked you). You can also follow groups like Lemmy communities, or Guppe groups.

There's really no need to have accounts on all platforms. Not unless you want to have separation between what you post, or want the variation in UX that comes with all of these different pieces of software focusing on different core experiences.

What's important to know is that they work via syndication -- content is mirrored across the network, not viewed insitu -- and that syndication doesn't occur without prompting. So, you need to go through the steps of entering a remote user or group's url or full account address (username@host.tld) in order to fetch content, and that content, by and large, is not backfilled.

If you can accept these limitations, then a single Mastodon, mbin, nodeBB, etc. account is all you need.

[–] julian@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

@Kichae @eeeee that is my approach as well. I was tired of having to maintain so many accounts for "social media", and so when I was finally able to make NodeBB my primary gateway to social media that was a big step for me.

It doesn't hurt that I get way more engagement on the open social web 😅

[–] kichae@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago

@julian "We're making a super cool product that's adopting this space" tends to go over well in the Fediverse, yeah. We love being catered to with cool toys and tools!

And good God do I miss real forums, after a decade on Reddit.

[–] eeeee@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Ok, if I can give specific example. I found a community via lemmy which is interesting. @medicine@mander.xyz If I want to post a topic in it, can I make a nodebb post and send it there?

[–] julian@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago

@eeeee I'm not actually sure about it, but I think all you have to do is mention the community.

In fact, you did in your reply, and I don't actually know what would happen normally. Perhaps it has to be a root post.

[–] eeeee@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

.. in medicine@mander.xyz group nothing arrived There is a post I made earlier (using isurg@lemm.ee) but not this latest one from isurg@nodebb

[–] julian@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

@eeeee Thanks, can you open an issue about this? I'll have to see what Lemmy expects for a new submission.

[–] freamon@community.nodebb.org 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

@julian I tested out a root post that mentioned a PieFed community, and it got there okay - it's viewable at https://pythag.net/c/sci_fi (and federated out okay to another PieFed instance at https://palaver.p3x.de/c/sci_fi@pythag.net)

My guess as to why Lemmy might not like it is that the activity contains:

"audience": "https://community.nodebb.org/category/-1"

It looks like Lemmy tries to fetch that and can't parse the response.

[–] julian@community.nodebb.org 1 points 2 weeks ago

@freamon oh! You're right on the money.

For whatever reason, Lemmy always checks audience even though it doesn't need to.

I brought this up for discussion in their github, and it resulted in @nutomic@lemmy.ml removing parsing of audience altogether!

So this might actually be a moot point once more Lemmy instances update, but I am not 100% sure.

[–] eeeee@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Ok I tried this as as a root post

It didnt get there. Whereas I can post into that community with my similar named lemm.ee account

[–] silverpill@mitra.social 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

@julian

Streams and Hubzilla also implement context collection. They attach context to activities, it is an OrderedCollection, and its items are activities.

@angusmcleod @pfefferle @jesseplusplus @nutomic @rimu

[–] julian@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

@silverpill@mitra.social can Mitra, Streams, and Hubzilla backfill from each other (full two-way backfill) or one-way at this time?

[–] silverpill@mitra.social 2 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

@julian Mitra can backfill from Streams and Hubzilla, but it doesn't publish any collections yet.

Streams and Hubzilla have interoperable FEP-171b implementations, but I don't know about pulling the collection. They are more focused on private conversations where backfilling is not needed.

[–] jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

@silverpill I've yet to see Hubzilla backfill an entire existing thread at once. It does backfill posts from new connections on certain server apps, though. And it sometimes appears to backfill threads bit by bit over prolonged periods.

As for (streams), I can't see inhowfar it backfills because I barely actually follow anyone from there.

[–] julian@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago

@jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu if you're seeing Hubzilla backfill "bit by bit" it is likely doing inReplyTo traversal, which is what NodeBB does if it cannot find a resolvable context.

[–] julian@community.nodebb.org 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

@silverpill@mitra.social thank you! I've updated the original post to reflect that now.

[–] silverpill@mitra.social 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

@julian I implemented collection of posts in mitra. For now it is only attached to top-level posts (via context).

Here, for example: https://mitra.social/objects/019529ff-7a45-9752-16f2-a3e780746c1c

[–] julian@community.nodebb.org 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

@silverpill@mitra.social this is now tested and outgoing backfill is working with NodeBB.

Are there plans to introduce post collections to all levels via context?

While there is utility in exposing it for the root-level, if I am Announce'd one of the replies (e.g. this one), there is no explicit link to the top-level post in order to discover context.

[–] silverpill@mitra.social 2 points 2 weeks ago

@julian Sure, I will add context to replies. Maybe in the next release

@angus @mario @jupiter_rowland @kopper