this post was submitted on 19 Mar 2025
85 points (100.0% liked)
Politics
10294 readers
259 users here now
In-depth political discussion from around the world; if it's a political happening, you can post it here.
Guidelines for submissions:
- Where possible, post the original source of information.
- If there is a paywall, you can use alternative sources or provide an archive.today, 12ft.io, etc. link in the body.
- Do not editorialize titles. Preserve the original title when possible; edits for clarity are fine.
- Do not post ragebait or shock stories. These will be removed.
- Do not post tabloid or blogspam stories. These will be removed.
- Social media should be a source of last resort.
These guidelines will be enforced on a know-it-when-I-see-it basis.
Subcommunities on Beehaw:
This community's icon was made by Aaron Schneider, under the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license.
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
Finally.
See you all in Denver!
Is it me or does neither of these two actually fight anything in these "fighting oligarchy" rallies?
i don't know how you expect people to engage with this without a definition of what you consider or don't consider "fighting oligarchy." as just one illustration: is AOC being so adamantly anti-Amazon that her district missed out on one of their megafacilities not, for example, pretty clear anti-oligarchy work? how about her supporting the Amazon Labor Union? and Bernie has literally a 40 year history of fighting for working class demands!
I think I was pretty clear I was talking about the rallies and not their voting records. To me it seems like these rallies lack a coherent goal; they don't actually tell their followers to do something other than call one's congressmen. The whole thing just invited the question "okay, what then".
To me it seems like these rallies lack a coherent goal
i think demonstrating popular opposition to a flagrantly bought and corrupt administration which is being visibly puppeteered by one of the richest men in the world--and tying that to Sanders's longstanding crusading for the working class and how they are structurally oppressed by capitalism and the oligarchs who benefit from it--is a pretty coherent goal, and one that Bernie has been extremely open about in talking about the tour and why he's doing it, but sure:
What is the impulse behind this “Fighting Oligarchy” tour?
One of the failings of the Democratic Party and the media has been their unwillingness to take a hard look at the reality facing the American people. We just don’t do that. Here is the reality: You’re living in the richest country in the history of the world. Despite that, you’ve got 60 percent — six-zero percent — of Americans living paycheck to paycheck, struggling every week to pay the bills. We take that for granted. We should not.
Over the last 50 years, despite an explosion in technology and productivity, the average American worker, in real inflation-adjusted dollars, is making less today than he or she did 50 years ago. And during that period, there has been a massive transfer of wealth from the bottom 90 percent to the top 1 percent — tens of trillions of dollars. What’s more, 85 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured; 25 percent of seniors are living on $15,000 a year or less. We have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country on Earth. That is the reality today. It’s a reality that we don’t talk about — and that is why people are angry.
Your politics have long warned about the unchecked power of millionaires and billionaires. Right now, under Trump, the world’s richest man, Elon Musk, is seizing the reins of the executive branch and carving up whole agencies. Can you talk about what’s so extraordinary — and extraordinarily revealing — about this moment?
I have been talking about this issue for a long time. It is worse now than it used to be — and the American people are seeing it. What does it tell any American when the three wealthiest people in this country — Musk, [Jeff] Bezos, and [Mark] Zuckerberg — are literally sitting right behind the President at his inauguration? What does it tell you that Musk spent $270 million to get Trump elected and is now the most powerful person in American government. What does it tell you that Bezos, the owner of The Washington Post, kicked in a million dollars to Trump’s inaugural fund; that Zuckerberg did the same, and also, when he was sued by Trump for his ownership of Meta, kicked in a $25 million settlement — “settlement” quote, unquote, right? — to Trump. If that doesn’t tell you that a handful of multi-billionaires have enormous control, not only of the economy, but the political life of this country… If you don’t see that, then you really don’t know what’s going on.
i think demonstrating popular opposition to a flagrantly bought and corrupt administration which is being visibly puppeteered by one of the richest men in the world
I see. "Demonstrating popular opposition" that's... Uh... Something, I guess. It might have been less disappointing if there was no goal to be honest. That aside it's still missing the final touch; what are people meant to do in and after attending these rallies? Just... Exist?
It might have been less disappointing if there was no goal to be honest.
unless you're actively doing political work yourself, i genuinely do not care (and nobody else should care either) what you think is useful or useless advocacy. you do the work, if you're so strongly opinionated that how Bernie is going about this is the incorrect approach--but don't complain that other people are doing things "improperly" if all you ever do is post or craft opinions. socialism already has far too many people who speak but do not act.
That aside it’s still missing the final touch; what are people meant to do in and after attending these rallies? Just… Exist?
do you think that people become class conscious and politically aware of the necessity of socialism through their own volition? these rallies are political education and political mobilization--they are making people aware of the relation between what is happening in their country and the economic structure that facilitates it, and getting them back into being politically engaged in the first place (because many of them probably ended their political engagement in November, and are not used to caring about this stuff outside of the usual cycle of American electoralism).
quite simply: there will never be a mass socialist movement without people like Bernie doing stuff of this sort--there is no basis for socialism in the American public as a whole, and this is and has to be the first step in rectifying it. and once again: even if you have criticisms, i don't think you currently have a right to voice them, considering you don't sound like you've done a second of politically educating the people around you. if i'm wrong, feel free to demonstrate that--but bluntly you sound like a poster who is all talk but no action.
My longer reply got deleted before I could send it so I'll just summarize:
First, I never said I was a socialist. Second, America doesn't have the time to take it slow and educate people about the dangers of capitalism; Trump is already arresting critics of his regime. Third, this is a time of crisis; you can skip the stage of political education and jump straight to action (which aside from building class solidarity and confidence convinces bystanders to join in). Fourth, everyone has the right to voice criticism. Fifth, where I come from political education is both irrelevant (the price of bread already has everyone hating the ruling regime's guts) and impossible (the government will literally just arrest or disappear you). Sorry I can't pass your little purity test; now actually do something something so you don't end up like us. To quote the article:
But how do you get from “standing up” to winning? What are the intermediate steps? Is it time for mass protests? What specifically should people do right now? I’d like to see Sanders and AOC address those questions more concretely.
First, I never said I was a socialist.
well then i definitely don't care what you have to say in terms of criticism—if you're not a socialist then the ideological framework from which you make that criticism is incorrect on merits and an incorrect basis on which to build a political movement which will ever resolve the crises you identify here. these crises are symptomatic of capitalism and a product of it;[^1] you cannot separate the economic system out here, nor will superficial political and economic reforms ever prevent what is happening now in America and Europe from occurring again in the future.
you need only look at the Nordic and Finnish democracies—where genuinely social-democratic reforms still define many aspects of society and are load-bearing aspects of the contemporary political culture—to illustrate this. they still have massive problems with reactionaries, would-be authoritarians, and open fascists gaining political credibility; but this is unsurprising if you recognize that, at the end of the day, they still live in a hegemonic economic system which cannot exist without necessarily impoverishing some people to make others wealthy, and creating debilitating social and political inequities. you will never deprive reactionary politics of their oxygen and grievances until this is resolved, and socialism is the only economic system which can bring this about.
Sorry I can’t pass your little purity test; now actually do something something so you don’t end up like us.
luckily, i am. most of my waking hours are spent doing behind-the-scenes political work, and i can also literally point you to some of the public-facing work i'm doing well in advance of our next elections. see, just as a sample, my Support 2026 and Oppose 2026 lists, or my For a "Bill of Rights" Package in Every State, County, and City which lays out an electoral strategy for American socialists to adopt and whose basic planks i'm pushing for within DSA in the lead-up to this year's convention. don't put your slothfulness and excuses for why you can't do political work on me, a person actually doing political work as a volunteer day job because i want the things i believe in to be built in my lifetime.
[^1]: and in the specific case of Trump, he is literally the stand-i for a "successful" capitalist to many people
you cannot separate the economic system out here, nor will superficial political and economic reforms ever prevent what is happening now in America and Europe from occurring again in the future.
So... I'm not really pro-capitalism as you'd likely conceive of that term, but either way I'm criticizing tactics here. No matter what your preferred destination is you need to push the gas pedal or you're getting nowhere.
just as a sample, my Support 2026 and Oppose 2026 lists, or my For a "Bill of Rights" Package in Every State, County, and City which lays out an electoral strategy for American socialists to adopt and whose basic planks i'm pushing for within DSA in the lead-up to this year's convention.
I don't think you get me. You likely don't have until 2026. A lot of the infrastructure for a full authoritarian takeover is already in place.
don't put your slothfulness and excuses for why you can't do political work on me, a person actually doing political work as a volunteer day job because i want the things i believe in to be built in my lifetime.
If not wanting to get arrested and tortured (again, this is not a hypothetical) is slothfulness then... Uh... Okay?
So… I’m not really pro-capitalism as you’d likely conceive of that term,
i don't know what you think "not really [being] pro-capitalism" means, but the fact that you can neither straightforwardly state that you believe in socialism nor elaborate substantively on your economic beliefs is an indicator you're just some sort of radical liberal. and that's fine--and radical liberalism is nice and all for this moment--but it is not a serious ideological system with credible tactics that will eradicate fascism or solve the inequalities and inequities that create the basis of right-wing authoritarianism.
I don’t think you get me. You likely don’t have until 2026. A lot of the infrastructure for a full authoritarian takeover is already in place.
okay, let's suppose this is true: what would you like me as an individual to do besides what i am already doing. help organize a general strike? one is already being organized for 2028, and you can't exactly spin up the infrastructure for one of those in a matter of months unless you operate under a very incorrect idea of how unions work. a strike is a massive financial, political, and organizational commitment--to say nothing of how a strike necessitates buy-in from the workers who engage in it (perhaps 40% of whom are in favor of the current administration, and would thus need to be convinced to organize against it).
or maybe you propose some sort of political violence? maybe firebombing a government office or assassinating an elected official? aside from op-sec considerations, those would be very stupid ideas to take up. bluntly: we've been there and done this. most left-wing political violence in the West does nothing to substantially harm the state, and frequently, it actually legitimizes authoritarian violence in the eyes of the public. the primary base of support for ideas like this are ultraliberals and ultraleftists who confuse the spectacle of political violence for meaningful political action--people who, in other words, think the most transgressive action they can take is the most correct one.
and if not these, what else? organize boycotts? people already do those. organize public marches? people already do those, to the point where it's impossible to keep up with all of the ones being organized. organize sit-ins and other nonviolent protest? people already do those. i don't know what you expect here that isn't already happening.
If not wanting to get arrested and tortured (again, this is not a hypothetical) is slothfulness then… Uh… Okay?
if you aren't willing to face meaningful political consequences for what you believe in, then what tactical or ideological advice could you possibly have that i should care about? the law has already pacified your politics and your convictions into uselessness--you have essentially stated you won't fight for what's right because it would inconvenience you.
this is also contradictory to what you're arguing in the first place: how is this position of yours any different from Sanders' supposed failure to meet the moment with tactics and radical politics? if fighting for what's right means potentially being arrested and tortured then, yes, as unpleasant as such a commitment sounds you should be willing to be arrested and tortured!
is an indicator you're just some sort of radical liberal.
Not quite, but maybe close. I'm a leftist Islamist (I don't think rightwing Islamism even exists as a coherent ideology but just in case). See why I didn't elaborate? I have coherent arguments for why it's a good ideology even in a purely secular sense, but no Lemming would ever listen to you stan for a 1400 year old book.
what would you like me as an individual to do besides what i am already doing. help organize a general strike?
Aside from the obvious stuff like promoting mutual aid, grassroots agitation efforts are probably your best bet. Organize in workplaces and other places where people meet, get them angry and suggest effective courses of action. For example there are many one-day protests and sit ins, which is fine and all but why is nobody striking? The goal is a mass movement that can then turn out in mass protests or a semi-spontaneous general strike. But setting aside the specific tactics I think will work, my pitch is: The top of the political pyramid is either incapable or unwilling to help you, but the bottom isn't, so put your focus there.
and if not these, what else? organize boycotts? people already do those. organize public marches? people already do those, to the point where it's impossible to keep up with all of the ones being organized. organize sit-ins and other nonviolent protest? people already do those.
Boycotts with a time limit lose most of their effectiveness. If you'll boycott boycott permanently or until you see change, so I guess that's another thing to focus on. You can take a page from BDS's playbook there. Also you're not supposed to be able to keep up with public marches and sit ins; you want people turning out in the millions all over the country.
i don't know what you expect here that isn't already happening.
All that, but more of it and longer and also strikes.
if fighting for what's right means potentially being arrested and tortured then, yes, as unpleasant as such a commitment sounds you should be willing to be arrested and tortured!
Okay? Being out for the count before anything actually happens (and it will because of the regime's authoritarian incompetence) doesn't seem to be good strategy, but there's no point talking about this.
The covert Trumpism supporters have been busy lately. Every thread about anyone pushing back, they're out here dragging the energy down. Every time someone in authority starts pointing toward a constitutional crisis, they're here to chime in with 'the constitution is already dead'. Every time a judge makes a ruling against the Trump administration they're happy to trot out 'it means nothing'. Every time a Democrat actually pushes against this administration they're here to say 'you're doing nothing'.
Incredibly suspect.
Oh come on please no more undercover MAGA/Russian troll nonsense. Did you not learn anything from the election? What you're calling covert Trumpism is and has always been legitimate criticism coming from your left. I'll ask again: What resistance is happening in these "resistance rallies"?
I think I see what you're getting at? My assumption is that you would need shit to get really bad for everyday people before you would see actual acts of physical resistance. At that point, you're looking at full riots or civil war.
Right now, all that we can probably expect is some light protesting on the streets and maybe some minor civil disobedience.
That being said, that light protesting can be a catalyst and is still helpful, even if it seems lackluster
Yeah, I learned that the bot farms will never quit.
Sigh.
As an outsider, I personally would like to see them branch away from the democrats and start a new party. The whole system needs to be fixed from the ground up. But perhaps it's too soon for that. Maybe things need to get worse first. Maybe government reform is too "extreme" at the moment.
My reasoning is that if the system survives this, it will likely return to the same BS that plagued it before. When this situation is fixed, I would hope there are actual solutions rather than band-aid fixes.
However any action is better than nothing at the moment.
As an outsider, I personally would like to see them branch away from the democrats and start a new party.
to push back on this: Bernie is only ever a Democrat by registration for political reasons, and he has a long history of being in left-wing third-parties where he--frankly--has mostly spent his time losing and not getting much done. when he is politically successful that is almost exclusively as a genuine independent not tied to a formal third-party, or as a Democratic-caucusing independent. and even the Vermont Progressive Party with which he is often associated is only a major player in Burlington, and that's because they've completely shoved the Republican Party out of the political system in the city (rendering it a two-party system with the VPP on the left and the Democrats on the right). they generally do not wield much political power themselves, despite being more successful than any other contemporary third-party.
in short: i think there is a very straightforward explanation of why he has not taken this course of action, and won't do so for the remainder of his time in politics. if building a party doesn't work it would waste a lot of grassroots energy on a project that simply isn't politically effective, and there are few reasons to think building a party would work right now. there are an incredible number of man-hours, volunteers needed for party-building, and political capital needed to even have consistent ballot access--and Bernie probably cannot assemble all of that at this point even if he wants to. additionally: major parties obviously have no incentive to make ballot access laws more lenient, so even if such a project got off the ground it could easily be killed by tightening those laws.
(incidentally: DSA, the organization i do work in, has many of the same debates about this subject--and the absurd capacity needed to credibly run third-party is the reason we're not and are unlikely to become one in anything but the longest term.)
That all makes sense. I think I'm probably getting ahead of myself a bit. In my mind, it seems like democracy has already lost, and the only way forward is through a full reform.
But you're absolutely right. It would likely require too much time and energy to attempt something like this now. Maybe once the threat has been removed, would they even consider such a thing.
I could also be speaking from a place of ignorance as I'm not familiar with the inner workings of the political structures that are currently in place.
How does the math work for that?
It's happened before so... Pretty okay.
They talk about oligarchy as if their own party is excluded.
AOC calls out the dems all the time. Why do you think she doesn't have a leadership role? Bernie is independent for what it's worth, and he calls out the BS from both sides.
He's been strangely quiet about oligarchy the last 4 years. The Bernie we knew pre2020 went into hibernation until last month.
AOC is always 100% talk, in action she toes the party line
hey, just a quick follow-up from the last thread you opined in: do you have an actual political strategy you're working to implement, if you're so critical of literally anyone else doing that work? you never answered my question about that--and, bluntly, if you don't have one then i don't know why anyone should value how you feel on subjects like this.
Responding to that post wasn't worth my time, the only solution liberals ever want to hear is one that only includes keeping the status quo intact. They are a failure at effectively governing and lash out at anyone pointing out the obvious
Are you just a disagree bot programmed with leftist plattitudes? Cause that is what it seems like
Responding to that post wasn’t worth my time
okay, so you don't have an answer or a strategy, and when challenged on that you resort to denigrating people as "liberals" for disagreeing with you. thank you for clarifying that your opinions are worthless.