this post was submitted on 31 May 2025
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[–] haverholm@kbin.earth 4 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

I had to put off this episode to watch it fresh with my partner, so Sunday was a bit of a spoiler minefield. I'd heard about the Billie Piper rumour, and of course that was confirmed to me by some rando who couldn't be arsed using content warnings on Mastodon before I could watch the finale.

Nevertheless, I went into it with an open mind and two expectations only: 1. To be fairly entertained for an hour, and 2. That the Susan plot would get tied up somehow. At least one of those happened!

There were more emotional payoffs here than actually narrative ones — this is not my favourite finale mode for Doctor Who, but I come prepared with plenty suspension of disbelief. It was lovely seeing Anita again, for starters. Was it mainly as a deus ex machina? Sure, but someone had to save the Doctor off that balcony.

The (definite article) Rani continues to chew up the scenery deliciously. It was no problem finding the Doctor, "I just had to look for a blonde human". Well, we have two more of those popping up unexpectedly before the show is over!

It made sense that focus shifted from the "unholy trinity" after that, because how could they live up to the threat they'd been set up as. So the larger fish eats the smaller one, and a third just swims away.

I do have a feeling that Davies doesn't do rewrites except to up the tempo so nobody notices the weaknesses while the story flashes by. Omega is a giant handpuppet, quick! Defeat him so we can get to the baby story! Without the cosmic context, Conrad's story ended as it reasonably should —with a firm talking to, and Ruby wishing him happiness. Off you pop, gammon boy.

As adorable as Sienna-Robyn Mavanga-Phipps is, I did have trouble following the Poppy story. She's the Doctor's and Belinda's wish child, got it. But when Conrad's spell is lifted, they still love her as their own ...okay? And then she's gone and they don't, but Ruby (who last episode insisted Poppy wasn't their child) has to set them straight. Again, it comes down to speed of delivery and suspension of disbelief, otherwise this comes apart before your eyes.

By then we pretty much know what's going to happen. Ncuti Gatwa is definitely off, and this is going to be his last hurrah. It's one of those emotional signals that Davies actually does well, even when the story context doesn't have the same impact. And then —

I swear I clapped and whooped when Jodie Whittaker entered the TARDIS. What a treat of a moment, to have those two paired up!

And finally, a sitdown with Belinda in a new timeline where she's now (and somehow always was) happily Poppy's mum and the Doctor can wash his hands of paternity. That was convenient, but again: It primarily plays on an emotional level to give Belinda and 15 their farewell.

And finally, finally — the Piper moment. What the hell? I'm sort of glad I had this spoiled, because otherwise I might have been really upset that we get another gimmick regeneration as the show goes on hiatus.

I'll be honest, I'm not a Rose Tyler fan. We've been rewatching the 2005 show recently, and I was low key thrilled to see her go after series 2. But this probably, hopefully, won't be Rose again, and Piper is a good actor in other roles; nor, I note, is she credited here as the Doctor.

All in all, this episode was a ripping emotional yarn while it was playing, but once all the moving parts settle down you sort of see they weren't connected in any satisfactory way. Why were we expected to care about Poppy again? Why was Susan setup for a no-show? What in the ever loving hell was the point of having Omega in there?

It's especially a letdown after such a great season where Sethu, Gatwa, and Panjabi really shone. The Doctor may not like endings, which is good because Russell Davies kind of sucks at writing them. Particularly in season finales he tends to overwhelm the viewer rather than actually tie up the story. It's event upon event upon event without resolution, and this is a shining example of when it doesn't work.

So we as viewers go into an uncertain couple of years on the bum note of an amazing lead actor who never really got to flex his skills, the Doctor's first companion who may now never have a chance to return, and an absolutely ridiculous cliffhanger.

As the Rani said in the beginning of "Wish world":

"Hoot hoot, quack quack. Bye bye!"

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Sunday was a bit of a spoiler minefield

A lot of it was driven by the BBC, too - normally, I would consider spoilers like that to be fair game to share, because if the production itself doesn't care, why should we? But this offended even my lenient sensibilities.

There were more emotional payoffs here than actually narrative ones

This is one of my favourite things about Doctor Who, really - the show often operates on emotional logic far more than, you know, logic-logic. Of course, that's a dangerous game to play, and there's a higher risk of a story doesn't quite land right with everyone, and...the more I think about it, the more that was probably the case for me with "The Reality War."

It was lovely seeing Anita again

I think it was intentional, but it was interesting that Anita was constantly sidelined by the narrative, kind of ignored by the other characters. A little heartbreaking, and I'm not sure what, exactly, the message is, but it did seem intentional to me. Also, I assume RTD had to write around Steph de Whalley's actual pregnancy?

And finally, a sitdown with Belinda in a new timeline where she’s now (and somehow always was) happily Poppy’s mum and the Doctor can wash his hands of paternity.

My initial reaction was that maybe this had been the case all season, and we had just been seeing the Doctor's altered memories, but...that doesn't really work at all, so never mind. It's a shame, too, because that could have been interesting.

[–] haverholm@kbin.earth 2 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Emotional payoffs — yeah, there needs to be a balance with narrative logic (even when that hinges on the Doctor being a rule-breaking smartass, or his companion suddenly acquiring superpowers) and both "Empire of death" and "Reality war" capsized a bit.

Belinda being Poppy's mum all along — we saw her living in that depressing flatshare in "Robot revolution", though. And why would Mundy Flynn's ancestor be the mother of Captain Poppy's spitting image? I really feel this (and probably the previous) season would have benefited from a good script doctor once-over before going into production...

Yeah, my brain definitely made a connection that wasn't supported by the story.

[–] Stormygeddon@startrek.website 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

That's it? That's the lost Time Lord? It was one minute of a bony CGI monster! Defeated with a secondhand thought, literally the secondhand to a clock! I guess I do kind of like tying how the Rani thought herself so superior to the human race but then being so unceremoniously finished in return. I don't like how Omega was just "grr, me hungry." I thought his main motivations was from being lonely and I think back to him trying to have the Doctor(s) stay with him.

The whole Poppy subplot kind of rubs me the wrong way. For one, there is a non-consenting aspect to it, suddenly having a hybrid child. Belinda didn't really want for one, and it's a bit of an "accident." The Doctor didn't really ask for it either. I don't see them as a romantic pairing, and the forcing of them to be one in the Wish World was supposed to be uncomfortable, as the Doctor in this generation is supposed Gay coded (could be pan, but doesn't matter) and the Doctor generally doesn't romance his companions. All right, so they had a wish baby without clapping humie cheeks, that can be an interesting consequence. But then they pull the rug and make that baby just a human baby, and the manner of which this baby was placed into existence was by force much like how the secondary antagonist of the last couple episodes did to the whole world. Once again Belinda didn't ask for this child as she has forgotten about Poppy and is disturbed at (and laughs off) the implication of having a (forgotten) child with the Doctor. It just all feels without express consent, uninvited/forced, unearned, and uncomfortable. For the other, it feels irrelevant as a consequence and forced the co-lead Belinda to basically have nothing to do. We didn't have many moments with her having her own agency as a character all eight episodes this season and Poppy was the contrived reason she was put in a box this finale—not even a figurative box, a literal box. There could have been some sort of parallel of Belinda and Poppy being stuck in eternity in an unchanging prison like Omega, but they didn't do something with that either.

Anyway, I was sad to see Ncuti Gatwa go. It feels so soon. He didn't even face Daleks. He'll probably be remembered as the one who cries every episode and was too short lived. At least he had a couple good episodes like Dot and Bubble, Lux, or 73 Yards. If they were going to bring in one of the other Doctors anyway, I'd have liked for the cameo for Matt Smith to have been extended, or at the very least do something with the bigenerated doctor too. I'm sure introducing Billie Piper is going to result in some gimmicky contrived mess.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 2 points 23 hours ago

I kind of expected Omega to be a big ol' nothingburger, kind of like Rassilon in "The End of Time", so I wasn't disappointed on that front.

There's a lot of potential in Omega, though, and to be honest I don't think any of the stories in which he appears have come anywhere close to taking advantage of it. He's always just a generic madman.

I have a lot of conflicting thoughts about the Poppy stuff - you make some very good points. I do think the Doctor and Belinda were planning on being...non-romantic parents toward the end there, which seemed to make sense to me. But I'm really not sure what to make of the whole thing, on a logical or thematic level. Like I said in my first comment, they did manage to take it from something I had no investment in to something I was actually kind of sad about, so they get some credit there, but...I won't be surprised at all if we learn that there was an earlier version of this story that went in a different direction.

[–] ADTJ@feddit.uk 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The ending just left me rolling my eyes, extraordinarily self serving in typical RTD fashion. Hoping it's just going to be for a brief spill like Tenant's return was but I guess we'll see.

[–] CrabAndBroom@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 day ago

[SPOILERS FOR EVERYTHING BE WARNED]

Imagine if it was halfway through Chibnall's era and you posted "the next show runner will be Russell T. Davies, and the next Doctor will be David Tennant. His companion will be Donna, and instead of regenerating he splits in two and then just goes and sits in a garden presumably forever. We follow the Doctor who isn't David Tennant, and he regenerates into Billie Piper. Also it will be co produced by Disney."

You'd be legitimately chased off the internet I think lol.

[–] SpaceScotsman@startrek.website 8 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

I kind of enjoyed this, at least the first half.

On the first half, It was alright. The big thought I had was - if this whole Whoniverse thing doesn't pan out, RTD and Bad Wolf would be great fit for doing a live action reboot of Captain Scarlet. A massive sci-fi weapons battery in the middle of a London disguised as a skyscraper is very spectrum.

  • Using the time hotel's doors was a great plot device to bridge from the last episode. It's one of those times that make you go "well, why didn't they use that big deus ex they had a few episodes ago...". This time they remembered!
  • The bone beasts were alright, but I feel like the explanation didn't really make much sense, and surely they could have found a better name than "bone beasts".
  • The box that exists outside of time is a pretty scary concept, that you could end up stuck for eternity in a non-space, with no escape. I don't know that I would have made the same choice given those circumstances.
  • In the week between episodes I rewatched the old series serial which introduced omega. I didn't really feel like the big bad we saw here was the same one. Omega, to me, seemed kind of stuck and abandoned and redeemable with a bit of work, here it was an eldritch bone beast that could speak.
  • On seeing everything start to come back from the wish world, I had forgotten that rose hung out / worked at Unit, and seeing that she was basically denied out of existence is pretty blunt, but I am glad it was pointed out. The doctor's new skirt dress was fantastic.

The "epilogue", I guess you could call it, was not great. I think I would have enjoyed it most if they had wrapped it up after Ruby notices that poppy has disappeared. It would have been tragic, it would have been emotional, it would have had punch, it would have been a pretty clean ending - just sometimes you don't get the happy one.

  • I really don't like that Gatwa only had 2 seasons, he should have been allowed more.
  • Getting 13 in for a cameo was unexpected, and I quite liked the dig at it usually being 10 that turns up, but I don't really get why she was there. The regen (?) into Rose(?) is weird, but very much RTD's thing. There have been a LOT of cameos and references recently, and I feel like Doctor Who really shines best when it acts as a set of mostly independent sci-fi anthologies with maybe a little bit of overarching story. When it gets too up itself with the self referencing fanservice I am beginning to feel it weakens my enjoyment of it. The middle of this past season had the best episodes for this very reason.

Also, a thought that occurs as I type this - they had a Susan foreman reference not too long ago. She is established as being a descendant. But they're sterile, so can't have kids let alone grandkids? I know this is a timey wimey thing, and I really don't want to encourage yet more cameos and self referencing, but surely this should have at least merited a mention. I really like the idea that you have a race of sterile people somehow trying to fix things, (I recently read The Old Axolotl, which touches on this concept) so why didn't they do anything with it.

[–] vaguerant@fedia.io 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The "epilogue", I guess you could call it, was not great. I think I would have enjoyed it most if they had wrapped it up after Ruby notices that poppy has disappeared. It would have been tragic, it would have been emotional, it would have had punch, it would have been a pretty clean ending - just sometimes you don't get the happy one.

This is exactly what I thought was happening. I didn't really expect her to stop existing, but I thought it would just be one of a thousand things that's like "Well, she's out there somewhere and maybe we'll revisit this plot in 20 years." The Susan Foreman connection was probably the main factor that made me think this, as it would have ambiguously set up a "future" plot point without needing to actually do the work, which is fine in a show like Doctor Who.

The retcon of Belinda's history also bothered me. It kind of gave me those Moffat-era vibes, where women could go on fun, exciting adventures and all of that but eventually they'd settle down in the wife and/or mother role that represents the person they're really supposed to be. Boo. I didn't think RTD2 would echo Moffat like that and I'm as much disappointed that Ncuti Gatwa only had two seasons as that Varada Sethu is gone after just one.

Unsurprisingly, I fell off the show pretty hard in the Moffat era; I've seen most of those episodes by now just catching repeat broadcasts, but I stopped purposely watching the show. I know everybody hates it, but I picked it up again when the Chibnall era started and never felt like I wanted to drop the show in that period. This finale has brought me closest to that feeling and sapped my enthusiasm.

I'm interested enough to know what's going on with Billie Piper that I'll probably watch as many episodes as it takes for that to be explained, but beyond that I'm not sure. I guess the Billie Piper stuff will have to really wow me.

[–] SpaceScotsman@startrek.website 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The retcon of Belinda's history also bothered me. It kind of gave me those Moffat-era vibes, where women could go on fun, exciting adventures and all of that but eventually they'd settle down in the wife and/or mother role that represents the person they're really supposed to be. Boo. I didn't think RTD2 would echo Moffat like that and I'm as much disappointed that Ncuti Gatwa only had two seasons as that Varada Sethu is gone after just one.

This bugged me as well. I was very surprised in the last ep and the beginning of this one to see just how protective and loving Doctor and Belinda were being to poppy. But then by the end, only Belinda is the one that seems to care deeply for the child. The doctor is given a chance to make a farewell, but then he just leaves with (as I understood it) the implication that he is never going to come back and that he's been replaced by a human dad. It just confuses me why any of that needed to happen.

the implication that he is never going to come back and that he’s been replaced by a human dad

I took it more as him knowing he was going to stay away during Poppy's childhood for safety's sake, and that he would have a different face when he returned.

I wanted to add that Thirteen's appearance has really grown on me - I think she's the one incarnation of the Doctor who would be able to drop the sanctimonious "I have to stop you" bullshit so quickly, and help Fifteen instead. The others would have gotten there eventually, but she's the version most equipped to get there so quickly.

The bone beasts were alright, but I feel like the explanation didn’t really make much sense, and surely they could have found a better name than “bone beasts”.

Like you, I also went back to watch the old Omega stories, and I figure the Bone Beasts were a nod to Omega's bird skeleton sidekick.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 6 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Okay, I think it's time for everyone to talk out our feelings together.

My thoughts on this one are complicated, and probably incomplete, so I'm relying on y'all to help me pick this thing apart.

My initial thoughts, off the top of my head:

  • It's a typically messy RTD finale, probably less than the sum of its parts, which is pretty much what I expected it to be.

  • There's unfortunately very little to talk about when it comes to the Rani/Omega plot. I'm left wondering if the "new" Rani regenerated in the Underverse. I'm glad the Mrs. Flood version survived to reappear another day, but I'm surprised that they didn't do more with her testy relationship with her counterpart.

  • The Poppy story...huh. They actually did a pretty good job of taking something that I was not invested in at all when it started to unfold, and turning it into something that I genuinely felt bad about by the end. The bit with the Doctor and Belinda passing the coat back and forth as it faded away was very well done.

  • And leaving Ruby as the one person who can remember "old" realities gives her an extra air of tragedy, as well. Millie Gibson played it very well.

  • I absolutely loved seeing Thirteen again.

  • And that ending...well, that's going to suck all of the oxygen out of the discourse for the next X years, so I guess I'll keep it brief. I'm not against it, but I'm skeptical. That said, I don't think it's something that RTD would do lightly, and he must have an idea of why he's doing it.

Open the floodgates. I need this.

[–] ech@lemm.ee 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I managed to avoid any news or leaks, so the regeneration was a shock to me. Pretty sad to see. I was looking forward to another season of more Ncuti.

The episode itself was...fine. Not a huge fan of full on laser gun fights in the show, particularly in the hands of The Doctor, so that was a bit off putting. That said, Poppy was cute af, and it was great to see Jodi again. The lines just before she left were super sweet. And even though I was saddened by the surprise of it, it felt like a proper goodbye for 15, which was nice. Curious to see what happens now. It feels unlikely to me that Billie will be The Doctor, but I don't think I'd hate it if that's the route they take.

Now I just have to forget the show exists as it takes one of its typical, interminably long hiatuses.

[–] jjsmith@friendica.world 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

@ValueSubtracted Mixed feelings need a while to process it all

This thread is now officially a support group.

[–] roydbt@lemm.ee 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Is the doctor being sterile new information or have I completely missed it? I thought he was spared by the genetic bomb/master’s genocide of gallifrey.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a retcon. I'm fine with it, but those WTF moments start to pile up.

[–] dee_dubs@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I don't think it was very clear if that was a side effect of the genetic bomb, or if it was something else. I may have been a little distracted by the thought that they were making Looms canon, but I would love it if that's where they go with this.

Edit: It might just be a coincidence, but I just realised there may be another link to the Looms. In her Cameo, Jodie's Doctor says there's a "great big time Schism on it's way". That article on the Looms? "devices used by the Great Houses of the Time Lords to perpetuate their race after the Great Schism."

It's probably not going to happen, but I can dream.

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think they said it was due to the genetic bomb, but I'll try to double check when I inevitably rewatch it.

[–] dee_dubs@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Going back over the scene, it's confusing. The Rani says it was the genetic bomb, but earlier she said she'd flipped her DNA to avoid it. She says their species as a whole is infertile ("a biological dead end"), which sounds like she's talking about more than just the two of them. If the genetic bomb was a slow, lingering extinction rather than an instant death, why did she only have a split second to avoid it? Maybe that means that others survived the genetic bomb as well, but the Doctor already knew about the infertility despite not knowing about other survivors. Add to that the Rani's disgust at Mrs Floods comments last week about the new Rani being her child, and the whole thing feels like two different ideas squashed together and not quite fitting.

[–] haverholm@kbin.earth 1 points 8 hours ago

their species as a whole is infertile

So, deep lore dive — in the Wilderness years novels the Time Lords were apparently depicted as infertile after a split in society that essentially exiled a mystical matriarchy that had been in power. IIRC those eventually turned into the Sisterhood of Karn?

But as a result Gallifreyans started reproducing through looms, basically Space Baby Factories. That has gone pretty much disregarded since 2005 when the show returned to the screen, but for some reason RTD seems to have doubled down on it, at least in subtext like the Rani's comment about infertility and, well — "Space babies"?

[–] Vittelius@feddit.org 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

One thing I find interesting: Billie isn't credited as "the Doctor". Usually the credit for a new doctor goes "And introducing Actor as the doctor".

And I can't figure out why? She is as far as we can tell the next doctor (unless they throw a curveball and she actually is the Valeyard or something) so why not credit her as such?

[–] ValueSubtracted@startrek.website 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

This article on the official site does absolutely nothing to clarify the situation.

Speaking of her return, Billie said: “It’s no secret how much I love this show, and I have always said I would love to return to the Whoniverse as I have some of my best memories there, so to be given the opportunity to step back on that TARDIS one more time was just something I couldn’t refuse, but who, how, why and when, you’ll just have to wait and see.”