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submitted 1 year ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world

The Chinese government has built up the world’s largest known online disinformation operation and is using it to harass US residents, politicians, and businesses—at times threatening its targets with violence, a CNN review of court documents and public disclosures by social media companies has found.

The onslaught of attacks – often of a vile and deeply personal nature – is part of a well-organized, increasingly brazen Chinese government intimidation campaign targeting people in the United States, documents show.

The US State Department says the tactics are part of a broader multi-billion-dollar effort to shape the world’s information environment and silence critics of Beijing that has expanded under President Xi Jinping. On Wednesday, President Biden is due to meet Xi at a summit in San Francisco.

Victims face a barrage of tens of thousands of social media posts that call them traitors, dogs, and racist and homophobic slurs. They say it’s all part of an effort to drive them into a state of constant fear and paranoia.

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[-] Tedesche@lemmy.world 112 points 1 year ago

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Lemmy is rife with these trolls. And I'm not just talking about the tankies.

I will never understand people who advocate for communism as opposed to democratic socialism. Every major country that has ever gone down the communist road has ended up a dictatorship. That's not a bug of communism, it's a feature. I get the criticism of capitalism, I really do, but we can enact socialist laws that rein in the excesses and extremes of capitalism without sacrificing our democracies for one-party governments.

[-] Tvkan@feddit.de 56 points 1 year ago

Every major country that has ever gone down the communist road has ended up a dictatorship.

Up until not too long ago, every democracy relied on slavery, disenfranchised large parts of the population, and eventually ended up a dictatorship. If you asked someone in like 1810 whether democracy could work, it'd be completely understandable if they pointed out all the horrible aspects of Greek and Roman "democracy", American planations, colonialism and the Reign of Terror, and if they assumed all of these to be inherent to democracy.

"Sure, the king isn't perfect, but he's surely better than Robespierre (who was inevitably succeded by Napoleon). And besides, great thinkers like Plato argued for a philosopher king – and that guy lived in a democracy, who would know better about all of it's evils?"

Yes, communism has failed in many respects so far.* The reasons for that are complex, include active sabotage by anti-communist states, but anyone who doesn't genuinely and critically reflect it's failures is (probably) doomed to repeat those mistakes.

Assuming those are inherent and inevitable based on less than a hundred years of history is imho short sighted.

*Some very early societies were probably kinda close to what we conceptualise as communism™ today, but applying the term is anachronistic.

[-] Tedesche@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Up until not too long ago, every democracy relied on slavery, disenfranchised large parts of the population, and eventually ended up a dictatorship.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. Slavery was never an inherent part of democracy and democracy certainly didn't rely on it. Ancient economies might have, but not their democratic systems of government. By contrast, communism does inherently call for the violent overthrow of existing governments in favor of a one-party transitional government that violently suppresses all others. Like I said, authoritarian rule is not an unintended consequence of communism—it is very much intended and seen as necessary.

Yes, communism has failed in many respects so far.* The reasons for that are complex, include active sabotage by anti-communist states, but anyone who doesn’t genuinely and critically reflect it’s failures is (probably) doomed to repeat those mistakes.

I don't really think it's that complex. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. When you have a governmental system wherein multiple groups can check each other's power levels, the system can self-stabilize (that's not to say it always does, but it can at least). Communism, with it's one-party system, has no checks and balances, and therefore is much more prone to succumbing to authoritarian rule.

You say we just haven't given communism enough time to "get it right" yet; I say they've already gotten it "right" multiple times. China is communism working as intended.

I think one thing that's confusing is that there's Marxism, communism, Leninism, MLM, etc. Different communist countries try to learn from other countries and each one has its own implementation based on its own material conditions.

From what I've heard, Lenin's vanguard party and violent revolution thing was basically theorized to be required basically because of the long history of more peaceful movements being squashed by violent capitalists, the difficulty it is to wrest power from the old dictatorship, that of the rich, and the difficulty it is to change a country's culture (see the super brainwashed US that might re-elect Trump let alone ever be able to get affordable health care). It's not really required for communism so much as seen as a working theory of what's required to achieve it in a pragmatic way due to the US trying to destroy it in every country that's gone near it from its very inception and their full corporate-owned media blitz on people like Bernie or the democratic socialist in the UK.

A lot of the authoritarian nature of these countries is due to the material conditions from which they arose (usually poor, rural non-industrialized dictatorships, often colonized) and from which they had to stay alive (which is usually in a siege mentality as the US or other Western countries continued to sanction and undermine them). I'd definitely prefer to live in a Nordic country than any communist one, but they also started off in very different contexts, so I'm not sure if that will always be true. Like the other commenter, I'd be curious to see more data. I'd give the point to socialist countries right now though, because the experiment of capitalism has the entire global south counting against it.

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[-] LazyPhilosopher@lemmy.world 35 points 1 year ago

I think this is semantic(definitions) confusion. Please let me explain. For example communism by definition is a stateless society. Meaning a state cannot be communist. The countries you are thinking of have all called themselves socialist not communist. Socialism does not necessitate dictatorship or democracy. It's simply economical. Socialism is an economic system that abolishes private property which marx defined as different from personal property. Personal property includes your place of living your tv your clothes all your personal shit. Private property refers to owning the means of production. So under socialism you could own your house but not a factory or Google ect.

The countries that are exploited the worst have sometimes had socialist revolts in the past. These countries are typically not functioning democracies beforehand. The USSR had a tsar. China's last emperor ended up joining the socialists once he was overthrown. Cuba had a U.S. backed dictator before Castro's popular revolution. These countries were not made into dictator ships because of socialism. You have the idea in your head because of capitalist propaganda.

Democratic socialism is just capitalism with a nice welfare state built on it. Despite the name it doesn't necessitate having democracy or socialism. Infact it's incompatible with socialism. These states are nicer then usual capitalist states but often backslide. For example Britain moving closer and closer to privatizing their healthcare.

I hope that makes some sense.

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[-] dneaves@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

Every major country that has ever gone down the communist road ended up a dictatorship

While I don't think full-on Marxism is necessary and am in agreement on the democratic socialism, I think the reason for this is really more towards the political end of it than the economic.

If a country practicing a communist economy had a more representative/democratic political system from the start, I'd like to see how the results panned out. And I'd also like to see which came first, the dictatorship, or the communism. The former being first makes more sense than the latter.

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[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee 70 points 1 year ago

I can’t prove it, but my hunch is a lot of the obnoxious people I argue with online, who seem unable to see reason or resist devolving to insults and twisting my words, are actually foreign operatives tasked with depleting American morale

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 17 points 1 year ago

IDK, I think there are a lot of pretentious idiots who refuse to engage in good faith discussions without any direct ties to any foreign governments. People adamantly hold on to all kinds of stupid opinions and argue fervently for them.

So it's hard to tell who the foreign operatives are if regular people are willing to spread disinformation without any kind of compensation.

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[-] MonkeMischief@lemmy.today 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's where the psy-op is though. So much of our communication even in our local communities is done online anymore.

So just putting that uncertainty in your head of "I bet a large percentage of people we interact with are just Pooh-bear sock puppets" might be enough subtle false-flagging to heavily polarize entire societies, when we remember China excels at taking bad things and applying them "at scale."

At a time when we're deprived of and seeking community and social bonds, it's isolating, it's depressing, and it's doing a ton of potential damage.

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[-] ExLisper@linux.community 11 points 1 year ago

Weird, my sensation is that everyone online agrees with me and thinks I'm very smart and overall a great guy.

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[-] Pat_Riot@lemmy.today 62 points 1 year ago

It's called tik tok isn't it?

[-] Cqrd@lemmy.dbzer0.com 30 points 1 year ago

They're all over, here it's called hexbear.

[-] guacupado@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

That and MAGA.

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[-] GBU_28@lemm.ee 59 points 1 year ago

Hit em with that "Taiwan number 1" to send em back to the shadow realm

[-] DigitalTraveler42@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Start sending them vids of our hero, Tank man.

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[-] Zehzin@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Anyone know if harassing US politicians and businesses is a paid gig?

[-] Travalanche@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

And here we've all been doing it for free all along!

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[-] VantaBrandon@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago
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[-] USSEthernet@startrek.website 35 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Fuck the CCP, fuck any Chinese citizen participating in this, fuck your mudda, fuck your whole ancesta, like a someboody fuck you bic, Taiwan numba wun

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[-] TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago

Weird way to say tiktok sucks but ok.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

The article hypothesizes a network of bot accounts that spam targets across social media with invective. So its got nothing to do with TikTok (a company run out of Hong Kong and Singapore, with an American subnet that's physically cut off from its Chinese-mainland counterpart). Even then, if you look at the actual details of the article...

When trolls disrupted an anti-communism Zoom event organized by New York-based activist Chen Pokong in January 2021, he had little doubt who was responsible. The trolls mocked participants and threatened that one victim would “die miserably.” Their conduct reminded Chen of repression by the government of China, where he spent nearly five years in prison for pro-democracy work.

He's a major contributor to US propaganda networks across the South Pacific who attracted a bunch of harassing call-ins during a Zoom meeting. He then attempted to tie the calls back to a wave of FBI arrests of Chinese residents, accused of subversive activities aimed at American institutions.

There's a certain irony in this story, because Chen Pokong himself spent two years in prison for championing anti-CCP protests in Guangzhou, following the Tienanmen protests in '89. So a guy who was once a passionate advocate for dissident expression and protest as an economics professor at Sun Yat-sen University is now a professor at Columbia University participating in mass arrests and imprisonments of US residents for dissident expression and protest.

[-] Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

American subnet that’s physically cut off from its Chinese-mainland counterpart

You believe that?

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[-] rusticus@lemm.ee 24 points 1 year ago

Freedom of speech should not extend to foreign adversaries. Give me the ability to geoblock social media just like I can with my router at home. Accurately label any domestic sources that are relaying this disinformation as well so I can block them too.

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[-] Onfire@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago

I've been on reddit for over a decade. There were clear signs of Russian trolls on reddit during the 2016 election. What I witnessed was that people in general were very easily deceived.

No longer on reddit so i cant tell of they are there, but the Chinese spam and disinformation bots/accounts are quite active on Twitter(X). I follow dozens of Chinese dissidents on Twitter and each time they tweet something, there are 5-10 bots tweeting sexual contents. It's ridiculous.

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[-] brihuang95@sopuli.xyz 19 points 1 year ago

I mean, just look at the comments section on X or Instagram and you'll see this playing out in real time.

[-] paddirn@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

Victims face a barrage of tens of thousands of social media posts that call them traitors, dogs, and racist and homophobic slurs. They say it’s all part of an effort to drive them into a state of constant fear and paranoia.

I don't think I've heard/read somebody getting called a "dog" much before (unless they're referring to the other name somebody might use "b****"), isn't that more a foreign and/or rural insult? I don't remember ever getting hit with any of these myself, so maybe it stings more in that context, but that list of insults is almost comical and reads like words somebody would say that didn't speak English as their primary language.

[-] AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

The Chinese spam machine was operating at the same time as the Russian system back in 2016, it was hilariously ineffective because apparently the sensibilities are so different. Memes didn't land, insults are odd sounding.

What I found really interesting in this article is they've changed or adjusted, or maybe just made more visible the effective part of this campaign. Targeting Chinese ex-pats, or Chinese abroad, even ethnically Chinese people who are first or second generation citizens of Western countries.

It's a way to reach out and maintain influence through fear, nowhere is safe sort of thing.

[-] WashedOver@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is an issue that has come up in national news recently for Canada too. The harassment has been targeting those with Chinese backgrounds that have been involved in an infrastructure or politics. There's been a controversy as CSIS did not disclose this threat initially, even to those targeted.

It will be interesting to see if Biden will be able to get the US and Chinese military to perform joint exercises again with the upcoming visit. The Chinese pulled out of them in protest to Pelusi's visit to Taiwan last year.

[-] August27th@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 year ago

This finally explains the purpose of TikTok as a spy platform to me. What better way to get deep research into the sensibilities of your targets.

[-] SCB@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

China knows all about my taste in thicc goth women

[-] Maggoty@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

What? Shocked! Shocked I am to find out the second you go after the CCP an army of trolls shows up!

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[-] CosmicCleric@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

From the article...

But Linvill of Clemson University argues that the network uses a unique strategy of “flooding” conversations with so many comments that posts from genuine users receive less attention.

“They are operating thousands of accounts at a time on a given platform, often to drown out conversations, just with sheer volume of messaging,” Linvill said. “When we think of disinformation, we often think of pushing ideas on users and making ideas more salient, whereas what China is doing is the opposite. They are trying to remove conversations from social media.”

This is what's always concerned me, more than anything else.

If you can't shape the narrative, you might as well destroy the environment any other narrative that would come from it. An anti-control, basically.

As an analogy, a band at a party that plays it's music so loud that no one can hear each other to be able to talk to each other.

If we don't get these bots/shills under control then meaningful conversation will never happen again in any large scale, and any chance for peace at a species level goes with it.

The center will not hold.

[-] AphoticDev@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 1 year ago

Damn, all this time Hexbear was actually getting paid?

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this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2023
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