Ask Lemmy

I'm a straight man who also thinks gender roles are gross. I like sweet and dominant women and I long ago decided i'm done trying to please people I fucking despise. Be yourself and you'll find the right woman. Your vibe attracts your tribe.

Questions like these are hard to determine an answer for because there's a wide array of subjectiveness and objectiveness from person to person. Social Media has only complicated that.

I don't know what you're like in person, but let's say for a moment you're straight, but aggressively effeminate. It's a niche thing, but there's somebody out there looking for that, just like there's dudes that are into the butch aesthetic. Human sexuality (and romance, and so on) is insanely varied.

If you're in an information ecosystem where you're hearing things like “If you want a girlfriend, you have to maintain the image of a strong stoic hero, and the moment that illusion is shattered, you’re fucked”, some degree of grass touching does need to happen. That's a dude preying on people's insecurities for his influencer brand or whatever. Find a happy older couple, ask yourself if that's what you see happening.

All three of your possibilities happen to some degree. Some people have shitty relationships and don't know why, some people fake their way through, but also some people don't.

I don't normally recognize specific users online except for a handful of novelty accounts. For all I know, I've only ever talked to 3 people on Lemmy. I don't generally look at usernames, and certainly don't remember them.

So, my dude, I think it says something that I recognize you. I hit about the 1st sentence of your second paragraph and went "is this that guy again?" And sure enough, you were.

I'm not saying this to belittle you in any way, please go on being your sensitive, submissive, gender-nonconforming self. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

But you're on here every couple of weeks posting along these same lines, so I can tell that this is really eating at you at a pretty deep level, and while I don't know what the best solution for you is, it might be professional help, it might be as simple as getting out more, it might be anything in-between, I'm pretty confident that just posting about it on here is probably not going to find you the solutions your seeking.

If there's one thing I've learned about people in general, it's that no one is particularly interesting^*^. By that, I mean whenever someone asks "am I the only one who ..." or they think they're the only one who thinks a certain way, they are always, without fail, wrong. You don't want to be the manly man, there are many like you and many women who prefer that.

What we all see on social media isn't reality. Some of it are just memes, some of it's just an echo chamber bouncing off each other, circlejerking their way into thinking all women get the ick if you have emotions. Even Instagram, where this is particularly bad, claims to have 3 billion active monthly users. Even if by some miracle each of these users were different real human beings, that's still shy of half of the population in the best case scenario. In reality, even with Instagram, MOST people in the world don't use it, so what you see there isn't representative of society. Nevermind that the almighty algorithm and the "culture" there attracts a certain type of person.

Honestly, the fact that there isn't an "incel" subculture full of progressive men who gave up because their personality wasn't patriarchal enough makes me wonder ...

There are.

In any case, if you want my opinion, women are people just like you. The same way you came to your conclusions and preferences, they have too. You want an equal relationship and some women will as well. Are there people like you described? Of course, but that doesn't mean anything more than that you two are incompatible. So if you meet one in your efforts to find a relationship, that's ok, just move on.

^*^many people are very interesting, I'm just making a point

I’d check your algorithm here honestly. On the female side I get men who are ONLY interested in that type of dynamic and don’t know how to wipe their ass—I know it isn’t accurate, but the internet insists I see it sometimes. I’m older and I can confirm most of us just want equal partnerships and independent adults. That said, in your early twenties you will encounter a fair amount of emotionally immature individuals. And people who have been groomed by their families and algorithms into gender roles as well. It isn’t hopeless, but it is getting more difficult.

At the risk of sounding like a boomer - as long as you let algorithms decide what your expectations of both yourself and any potential partner are, you are hamstringing yourself. All people are more than a set of preconceived roles that a bunch of influencers decided were relevant.

You need to date. By which I mean go outside where people are, socialise, find people you like for multiple reasons (so not just perceived attractiveness, not just wage, not just the role you think they might have) and ask them out. The worst that can happen is they say 'no thanks'. And if it takes 20 times before someone says 'yeah OK' then so be it. Its not a competition and no one is keeping score. Dating someone is literally the only way to get to know them beyond your own assumptions.

actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.

This was my experience. I don't think I've ever dated a woman who wanted extremely traditional gender roles. As far as I could tell they mostly wanted equal partnerships like you are describing. And after 12 years of marriage I can tell you my wife and I definitely don't fall into stereotypical roles.

I did date one woman for a year and a half who had some traditional tendencies, but only some. She did not want a breadwinner to support her and did not mind men showing emotion. On the other hand, she definitely subscribed it to the idea that men are dumb pigs who need to be managed by their wives, and she seemed to think it was normal for a marriage to be a constant low-grade "battle of the sexes" — she kept telling me these stories about her parents' conflicts that she thought were cute but I thought were kind of horrifying. I broke up with her for a few reasons but that was definitely one of them. But my point is everyone is an individual and she had some traditional tendencies and some not traditional tendencies. Also I got to know her and had fun dating and then eventually broke up because I didn't think we were a good match. It was fine, and I learned a lot about myself along the way.

Now, if you're on your guard all the time worrying that a woman wants traditional gender roles I bet you can find reasons to support that hypothesis. So don't go looking for it. Instead, go on some dates and just get to know the other person as a person.

Those people who tell you all women want a certain thing are wrong. They might be coming from a particular subculture where it's true, and if you are constantly meeting women who only want traditional gender roles then maybe you need to look at who you're asking out and how you are meeting them. Some of the people who are telling you these stories are knowingly lying because saying "everything sucks and you can pay me for a solution" is a very profitable venture. Other people wish traditional gender roles were the norm and so they're sort of LARPing it online.

Also, remember that going on a couple of dates is not a lifelong commitment. You're getting to know each other. Have fun with it. If you don't like her once you get to know her better, move on. The more you go on dates the easier it gets. Go touch some grass and go touch some ass (consensually).

Abandon the concept of gender on humans. We're too complex to fit in little boxes that make small minds feel safe.

Here's my advice as someone who basically could have written this post when I was your age (I'm now 30)

You can absolutely find a partner who wants to be free from gender expectations and find a relationship like you describe (I did!), but it will be extremely hard to find if you don't put yourself out there and get used to sorting through the majority who are satisfied with gender roles.

The most important things imo are to 1. Keep putting yourself out there when you have the energy. 2. Take breaks if you have to, don't let the experience make you jaded or let that frustration affect how you treat others because that's an easy way to repel someone who would otherwise be a great match. 3. Keep being yourself, don't be afraid to showcase the ways in which you are not traditionally masculine. I literally put a picture of myself in a maid outfit on tinder and I get quite a few compliments. You'll only repel the people you don't want and it'll be like a beacon to attract those who view gender roles in the same way that you do.

To your last point, I would guess a lot of guys probably live quietly unhappy. But plenty have found accepting partners and social circles who are open minded about identity and gender expression.

Your assumption that all women are looking for a relationship that aligns with traditional gender roles is antithetical to your view of women as equals. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just nudging you towards the conclusion that people that talk about traditional expectations in a relationship don't really speak for everyone. It also seems like a lot of your evidence comes from male voices, which I don't think is an accurate reflection of what women want in a relationship. It sounds to me like these are the conclusions of the circles that you hang around in (or the culture that you live in/grew up in) rather than a fact of life. Most of the women I know are either in the types of relationships you are describing or vocally advocate for finding that type of relationship. There are both women and men that haven't evaluated the impact of patriarchal male expectations, and so there are both men and women out there that knowingly and unknowingly perpetuate the stereotype of men as unfeeling and uncaring. But to say that all men and all women think this way is probably inaccurate.

It sounds like you know what you want in a relationship and what activities make you happy regardless of whether they traditionally fit with a certain traditional gender expression, so do those things. I know it's demoralising to feel like the odd one out, but even if you live in a particularly conservative country there will always be like-minded people /somewhere/ out there.

actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, despite popular narratives.

This might come as a shock to you, but women have been complaining that men pigeonhole themselves into gender roles for decades, and many, if not most of them, would love a guy who is sweeter, not afraid to show their emotions, and is caring and intimate.

I the fruity one, find there are more women i talk to that like me more than not. Im not plenty of womens cup of tea im sure, but im not interested in plenty of women too.

Lomg and short of it, yeah we're out here doing fine. Gender is part of a performative identity so wr are goinh to see shows all the time, people, like myself, tend to value other identity expression and so you probally wont see us performing counter gender as much (id rather talk about Linux, Rancher, FOSS, homesteading, economics, etc instead of dwelling a lot of normative gender dynamics that dont explain me and my partner(s) well.

Who's going to be doing this railroading? It's going to be up to you and whoever you decide to have a relationship with to decide what your roles in the relationship will be. When I started getting serious with my partner (now cohabitating over a decade and going strong), we both thought we were cishet little ex-christians. But we were buddies from the start, and that hasn't changed even when we started to question our gender identities. For all I know, it may have been the fact that we were in a stable, loving relationship for the first time in both our lives that made it safe enough to start exploring that aspect of ourselves. I know for us it took (is taking...) a while. I loved them when they thought they were a woman, I love them now as their NB self, and if they discover more about their gender identity I'll love them then. We're still, and will hopefully always be, partners and best buds.

So if you want to try being in a relationship with a girl, find a girl you like, and love her.

I think the real reason you haven't dated a girl is you've never gotten to know any. You wouldn't think like this otherwise. A majority of couples I know have equal relationships with emotionally vulnerable guys. Your last statement on touching grass fits the bill.

(3) actually did find partners who loved them for their authentic selves, and most people have figured this out and I desperately need to touch grass.

This is the answer.

I know a bunch of people in happy cis-hetero relationships where there is no bs going on with traditional gender role expectations. A dear friend of mine is a super sweet, sensitive and emotionally open cis-lad. He and his wife are very happy together. He's got pink hair, dresses pretty funky and is super adorable while his wife is more on the butch side with a healthy 'let's do this' hands on mentality and a nice casual look. That's just one exampel. Almost all my hetero lady friends go for emotionally open and cute lads. Just be yourself, find the right person to date and be happy together.

bi guy married to a woman here

sometimes we appear to be adhering to these gender roles and sometimes not (i guess). In reality the alignment to the roles are irrelevant and we just live our lives.

As many people would say - for e.g. - that me being the one who cooks more in our household is inline with gender roles (more men are chefs) and some the opposite (cooking is a woman's domain).

Both are wrong, it's just that I like cooking and she doesn't mind.

It's not worth it if you're going to be railroaded into a gender role, no.

But that an IF, not a certainty. A relationship with a partner who treats you as an equal and an individual IS worth it. You gotta find the right person for that.

Don’t confuse stereotypical gender roles with actual roles. People are different and your partner will be stronger than you in something’s and less strong in others. Of course in my case this matched stereotypes so I just said we were traditional, but may have been fooling myself.

Of course after all that time together, now that we no longer are, one of the freedoms I’m enjoying being allowed to cook. She saw it as infringing on her role and insisted on being the one. At the time it was easy to give in, especially since she is a better cook and outstanding at combining meal planning with shopping. However I’m more adventurous a cook and appreciate new and different foods.

It depends a lot on the person involved. People vary a lot. A fair bit of women like the traditional female role but many don't. They do tend to make relationships toxic in the modern day because being viewed in those terms, men have very little value in the modern economic games. Dating a man was more appealing when that meant you could just be a stay at home wife and raise children maybe, also maybe work part time when the kids grew older. Now there is little reason to date a man. It means mostly giving up your entire life for essentially nothing, having a roommate really. It might lower costs a bit but at the cost of taking on tons of risk and exposure and losing the sole claim on your property. The amount of women seeking traditional relationships far outreaches market capacity. Around 10% of Americans are doing well financially, even less than under feudalism in relative terms of social status. Half of Americans are basically in poverty. This means that even traditional relationships are probably not going to be good, as any man who has that kind of money probably has about 9 other options besides yourself as a woman. Men also just don't really have a good place in modern society.

Pseudocapitalism and corporatism is so antihuman in so many ways, from fiat currencies creating high tax burdens making property ownership very unrealistic, to the very low economic efficiency making workers spend most of their time at jobs to get anything done, to the ruling class being full of actual morons who stay in wealth forever because of fiat currency and the stock market always returning more than what anyone else can expect to gain over their life, giving them infinite leverage to start one bad company after another to essentially move money and debt around. They spend tens of billions on propaganda and political advertising to keep power, while your average American is struggling decade after decade and has no political group to represent their interests as a working class person.

Not a certainty. But realistically, just like most men are socialized to be masculine and fulfill the traditional roles that come with that, most women are socialized to be feminine. You can unlearn that though, and maybe part of what you should try to understand about yourself is why you “fell out” of the patriarchal conditioning and look for friends/partners that are doing that sort of work too. Good luck