I'm not sure the US has ever been on the moral high ground when it comes to wars.
this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2023
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In fact, it's pretty hard to think of a war since WW2 where US was on the right side of history.
Even before WW2 most of their conflicts were on the wrong side of history. And if you analyze the actual system flows of WW2, there's an argument to be made that the US was only accidentally on the right side of history in WW2 and that the overarching strategic goals of the US in the conflict (anti-communism and dominance over Europe) were and are on the wrong side of history.
Can't wait for somebody to explain to me how Sky news is actually doing Russian propaganda.
Why do you hate us Ukrainians so much?
You should ask the nazis who were bombing civilians in the Donbas for the past 9 years that.
Engaging with reality has nothing to do with hating Ukrainians. In fact, the only people who actually hate Ukrainians are the ones who want this war to keep going so that more people die or have their lives ruined. Anybody who looks at what happened over the past two years objectively can see that this has been an utter disaster for Ukraine, and it's only getting worse.
You know that people can see your post history right?
You've done nothing but post doom and gloom for Ukraine and some fairly pro Russian stuff.
The war ends when Russia fucks off from my country. It's that simple. Russia is just pissed that we've told them multiple times to fuck off. (Euromaidan, electing Zelensky, etc).
As far as the article goes nothing surprising really. America is a huge arms dealer who has a massive arsenal at their disposal. This is par the course really. On one side I'm not super pleased that America will be heavily embedded in Ukraine now. On the flip side I'm glad my people are being helped.
What I post is a realistic analysis of the situation, and having delusional fantasies about the state of the war certainly isn't helping anybody. Also, last I checked Zelensky was elected on the platform of implementing Minsk and patching up relations with Russia. The fact that you would lie about something like this says volumes.
The reality is that America has hollowed out its industrial power and at this point can't produce weapons at the rate they're being consumed in this war. Furthermore, Ukraine isn't central to US interests because US is ultimately preparing for a war with China. What's going to happen in the end is that US will abandon Ukraine. Anybody who thinks that US will fight for Ukraine at the expense of US interests is historically illiterate.
I have no idea where this "patching up relations with Russia" comes from. His platform was always about getting closer to the EU.
Donbas has always been the main issue between Ukraine and Russia, and if Zelensky actually followed through on his platform Russia would've likely not cared about Ukraine joining the EU. In fact, they even said as much. Instead, Zelensky did a 180 on what he said he'd do and now we are here.
My dude. I'm from Toretsk. I'll give you a second to google where that is.
We voted for him because we wanted the change he was promising. Which was to distance ourselves from the corruptive influence of Russia and move closer to the EU. It's not like my poeple haven't even trying to do this for years now.
The fact that you can't even conceive of being able to distance yourself from Russia without escalating tensions with Russia is why your country where it is today. USSR and NATO didn't want to do with one another during the Cold War, but managed to avoid actual hot conflict. The fact that people can't even imagine peaceful coexistence today is rather depressing.
How TF did we escalate tensions? They invaded us. 🤡. All this ends when they leave.
People like Mearsheimer explained in detail precisely how the west used Ukraine to escalate tensions over seven years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4
You still don't seem to understand that your country is just seen a pawn by US, they don't care about you at all. RAND literally published a study titled Extending Russia explaininig how Russia could be drawn into a war in Ukraine. They weren't even hiding it. Yet, some clowns still think that the west is there helping them.
This all ends when US decides they've invested enough into this grift and move on. The same way Vietnam, Syria, Iraq, and Afghanistan ended. If you think you're country is going to be the one where it's different you're even more of a 🤡 than I originally thought. You're just a resource being spent in a geopolitical game US is playing.
You have a reading comprehension issue. I've already stated the problem I have with the US being involved. I know full well what the US is doing.
That doesn't change the fact that Russia can fuck off. Period. End of story. No amount copy pasting the same shit over and over will change that.
US is the only reason this war is still going, and once US inevitably abandons Ukraine things will get a lot worse.
Meanwhile, Russia is very obviously not going to fuck off at this point. The sooner people Ukraine start engaging with reality the better off things will be for Ukraine.
Russia is the only problem here.
You've proven your sympathies well, here. And I believe you've persuasively shown you are who and how they say you are.
I do agree, as an American, that we should be seen as somewhat psychopathic. We want what we want and don't always follow through like promised. That said, I don't see too many futures where containing Russia isn't enough to hold our attention (and therefore, resources).
Your country is a genocidal regime that's responsible for some of the most despotic crimes against humanity. Currently, your regime is cynically using the people of Ukraine as a way to try and weaken Russia as the paper RAND published prior to the war very clearly explains.
This hubris isn't going well for you.
You continue to respond in poor faith and describe me in ways that are inaccurate. Or pretend that Americans are a monolith, you have a unique objective view of the monolith, and I fit that monolith. Then you respond to me as that stereotype you've created. And as though I'm in full agreement.
This isn't going anywhere.
You're just straw manning here since I didn't say a single thing about you. So, you're definitely right it's not going anywhere.
I'm sorry. What? Hollowed out our industrial power? Lmfao.
The US is ramping up production to meet the needs of Ukraine. Granted, it took a bit to get that rolling, but when we decide to make weapons, boy do we make weapons.
Throw as many articles as you want about how Ukraine is using more ammunition that we are currently producing. They mean nothing.
We're giving them our older model stuff from the 90s. Compare that to the mothballed museum pieces Russia is rolling out.
And I'm not going to respond further because after reading what you posted and preemptively defending this post, you are a troll, a vatnik, a Russian propaganda mouthpiece or all three.
US industry accounts for only around 11% of its GDP nowadays, and the amount of shells US can produce today is laughable.
Biden has literally admitted that the reason cluster munitions are being sent is because US ran through the regular munition stocks.
You're not going to respond further because you know that the facts aren't on your side. No amount of name calling and personal insults is going to change that. You're either an ignoramus or a liar, either way not a good look.
Draining stocks is exactly what the US wants. Are you really this daft and don't understand this simple point. This is huge money making expedition for the US.
While people making money from the war is certainly a big aspect of all this, the reality is that US can't produce ammunition at the rate it's being consumed. Two things can be true at the same time. Eventually, this grift will run its course and it will be the people of Ukraine who suffer in the end being led up the garden path by the west.
I don't disagree with the sentiment that Ukrainians aren't suffering and won't suffer more because of this. I'm not a fan of the US hegemony.
That being said I think you grossly underestimate the weapons capacity of the US both stockpile and production ability.
Heck I could make that argument about Russia as well...
I think we'll find out soon who's underestimating and who's overestimating what US is producing. However, all the official sources from US disagree with you right now. And again, Ukraine isn't a core interest for US and they're not going to send every last bit of weaponry to Ukraine. Here's what Obama had to say in 2016:
Meanwhile, Russia was producing over a million shells a year even before the war started, and has only increased up production since then
- https://jamestown.org/program/russia-struggles-to-maintain-munition-stocks-part-one/
- https://jamestown.org/program/russia-struggles-to-maintain-munition-stocks-part-two/
CSIS just published an article admitting that Russia isn't going to be running out of missiles either https://www.csis.org/analysis/russia-isnt-going-run-out-missiles
tank production in Russia is ramping up too https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2023/06/29/russias-uvz-halts-all-secondary-output-begins-tank-mass-production/
The reality of the situation is that Russia has a state run military industry that it inherited from USSR, while the west has privatized industry. It's much easier for Russia to ramp up production than it is for the west.
Finally, there's China with an industrial base that dwarfs the west. China needs Russia to secure resources and as a shield in the west. The worst possible outcome for China would be if Russia was balkanized by the west and US was able to install puppet regimes there. If Russia ever found itself in a difficult position then China will step in and provide support.
We’re giving them our older model stuff from the 90s. Compare that to the mothballed museum pieces Russia is rolling out.
Think about this for a moment. The USA is using its older stuff first.
You look at what Russia is using and you think it's old or not as advanced. Why aren't you making the logical conclusion (which is backed by evidence if you look) that Russia is doing the exact same thing as the USA?
Why is the USA's use of old weaponry simply that--use of old weaponry--but Russia's use of old weaponry is...something else? Corruption? Incompetence? Whatever other excuse you want to come up with?
It's safe to assume that Russia knows that the USA and other countries are going to send older reserves of weapons first. So it's not unreasonable for Russia to not use more than is necessary and bring in their newest and best weaponry.
They really don't understand a simple concept. Unused munitions are a "bad" thing for an arms manufacturer. This is all a huge boon for the US at the cost of non US lives.
Yup. Have all of our "older" stuff, we have a lot and will make new ones.
Oh, and be careful in this thread. Fighting vatniks high as hell on copium is dangerous. Best to let them be and ignore them.
All they have is the same few weak and dumb arguments. It'll give you a headache of you try to logically argue with someone who just throws shit.
It's fun for a bit but I have em blocked now. These "communists" have all the same taking points. Always "US bad" but Russia doing the exact same thing is somehow good...
Yup, fun for a while. Unfortunately I'm a "do as I say, not as I do" advice giver....lol
I don't think anyone fails to understand this. The points being made are that 1) Russia is also using old stock so assessing Russian capabilities based on what they are fielding is copium; 2) the US literally doesn't have the physical manufacturing assets required to increase production to anything resembling reasonable; 3) while the US is ramping up production, Russia and China are already significantly further ahead in manufacturing and also are ramping up production meaning the US is racing to see who can produce more while starting from way behind and not having anywhere near the infrastructure necessary to ramp faster than either Russia or China.
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