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A math lesson from 4chan (sh.itjust.works)
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[-] lvxferre@lemmy.ml 138 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

That's surprisingly accurate, as people here are highlighting (it makes geometrical sense when dealing with complex numbers).

My nephew once asked me this question. The way that I explained it was like this:

  • the friend of my friend is my friend; (+1)*(+1) = (+1)
  • the enemy of my friend is my enemy; (+1)*(-1) = (-1)
  • the friend of my enemy is my enemy; (-1)*(+1) = (-1)
  • the enemy of my enemy is my friend; (-1)*(-1) = (+1)

It's a different analogy but it makes intuitive sense, even for kids. And it works nice as mnemonic too.

[-] Dalvoron@lemm.ee 20 points 10 months ago

I teach maths and one of the analogies is use is watching a film of someone walking forwards and backwards. If you play the film forwards (multiplying by positive), you can see the person walking forwards and backwards as normal. If you play the film backwards (multiplying by negative) you see the opposite. So multiplying by negative reverses whatever was happening before. Hard to put into words but the visuals (hopefully) seem to explain it well enough.

[-] deweydecibel@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

That's exactly what eventually helped me understand it.

To multiply the negative by a negative is like an instruction to "reverse the circumstance that created the negative and then keep 'reversing' forward", so to speak.

You come across a hole in the ground. You see a shovel and 5 piles of dirt. That hole in the ground represents where that dirt used to be.

You can "add" more depth to the hole by digging, i.e. continuing to remove dirt and create more piles.

But you can also reverse what was done by "un-digging", I.e. putting the dirt back into the hole.

So if you "un-dug" the hole with the 5 piles of dirt, you'd have 0 piles, and 0 holes.

But if you "un-dug" the hole 5 times in a row, you've filled the hole and started creating a pile on top of it with dirt from somewhere else.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago

It’s a different analogy but it makes intuitive sense, even for kids.

Its good maths but terrible realpolitick.

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[-] pythonoob@programming.dev 5 points 10 months ago

My math teacher in middle school explained it with love/hate, but same set up.

If you hate to love you're a hater If you love to hate you're a hater

[-] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 4 points 10 months ago

Oh this is a really cool way to think about it! Thanks for sharing

[-] whereBeWaldo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 10 months ago

This is basically the staple way of explaining the topic in my country. It was a very bizzare concept for 13 year old me so it made understanding it a lot easier.

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[-] Xeroxchasechase@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

I mean, you can negotiate a peace agreement and free trade deals, you don't have to be enemies.

[-] macisr@sh.itjust.works 96 points 10 months ago

Lmao not gonna lie, this would be a very intuitive way of teaching a kid negative values.

[-] stockRot@lemmy.world 17 points 10 months ago

How is multiplying akin to rotating?

[-] IWantToFuckSpez@kbin.social 64 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

The 180 deg rotation indicates multiplying by negatives. It’s a good analogy to represent change to the opposite side. Which multiplying with negatives does, the number goes from one side of 0 on the number line to the other side.

[-] Gutek8134@lemmy.world 21 points 10 months ago

It was used in my. complex numbers class - multiply by i means rotate 90 degrees on complex plane

[-] vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de 20 points 10 months ago

and multiplying by i twice means you rotate 90 degrees twice. So 180 degrees. Multiplying by i twice means multiplying by i^2 = -1.

So multiplying by -1 is a rotation by 180 degrees

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[-] diverging@lemmy.ml 26 points 10 months ago

(-1)*(-1) = e^iπ^*e^iπ^ = e^i2π^ = 1

[-] StereoTrespasser@lemmy.world 7 points 10 months ago

We're looking for ELI5, not ELImathematician

[-] prole@sh.itjust.works 2 points 10 months ago

Lol, yeah good luck explaining 'e' to a child who doesn't understand basic multiplication.

[-] Kase@lemmy.world 3 points 10 months ago

Idk how they do it these days, but when I was a kid we learned the alphabet several years before multiplication. /j

[-] V0lD@lemmy.world 21 points 10 months ago

Multiplying with q negative does genuinely correspond to a 180° rotation around the origin in the complex plane (plus a scalar multiplication of course)

[-] stockRot@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago
[-] porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml 10 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I take your point, but honestly I'd bet many would be ready to learn about complex numbers a lot earlier if they were taught in this way.

Having such a memorable physical analogy "because I said so" is already miles better than the purely abstract "multiplying negatives makes a positive because I said so", even if it still doesn't mean you could teach extremely high level maths to six year olds.

[-] somethingsnappy@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Agreed. I'm trying to keep the reigns on an 11 year old, and we frequently talk both in what I would say is abstract. Also have to keep it somewhat grounded, because skipping multiple grades in math does not mean you will understand some things. Absolute value was an interesting conversation, and to be fair so was multiplying negatives.

[-] webghost0101@sopuli.xyz 3 points 10 months ago

I was already trying to visualize multiplying as a circle in my head and something clicks but cant grasp it.

Now reading that apparently There is a real mathematical link i am dying to learn more. Do you know of an online visualizer/simulation that helps showing what you just said?

[-] V0lD@lemmy.world 9 points 10 months ago

Honestly, the best online resource I know of are the 3blue1brown videos on complex numbers

Any tool risks confusing you more, since multiplying in the complex plane can act quite unexpectedly when you move outside the real line for both parameters

[-] webghost0101@sopuli.xyz 2 points 10 months ago

Had a look around and this will quickly become one of my favorite media channels! Thanks!

[-] Fermion@mander.xyz 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

https://www.3blue1brown.com/lessons/eulers-formula-via-group-theory

Minute 12 in the video is the most relevant, but the whole lesson is worth going through.

3blue 1brown is a great channel for challenging how you think about math in a beautifully animated fashion.

[-] webghost0101@sopuli.xyz 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I just had a look on their channel. I think my old classmates would cringe if they knew how excited i got seeing these thumbnails and titles.

All my initial scientific inspiration have gotten sucked dry in the meat mill that is the education system, but living in the age of educational internet videos is big healer.

I got vertasium and steve mould. Kurtzegesagt is mandatory for everyone by now i hope, i still follow Vsauce but i miss Michael. Got any other recommendations?

[-] Fermion@mander.xyz 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Mathloger, numberphile, computerphile, Sixty symbols: more good math/computer science theory channels

applied science, breaking taps: truly amazing "garage" engineering. They take on projects that you would normally expect to take a specialized lab.

alpha phoenix: his expertise is in materials science but he does delve a bit into electromagnetic questions

Mr P Solver: solving interesting problems computationally in pthyon

Eevblog: good electrical engineering insights with a nice Australian accent

Practical engineering: all the civil engineering questions you never knew you had

Stuff made here: what happens if a robotics expert has a generous fun projects budget and never sleeps

Tropical tidbits: discussion of the meteorology of tropical storms and hurricanes as they happen with none of the weather reporting sensationalism

I'm sure I'm missing some, but that should be a big enough list to add many hours to your watch list.

I have a physics degree, and 3 blue 1 brown's latest videos on light are amazingly presented in comparison to the vast majority of lectures I've sat through. It makes me hopeful that online video sharing can help improve pedagogy and not just be clickbait nonsense.

[-] Xanvial@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Maybe this help https://www.nagwa.com/en/explainers/280109891548/

Or you can search Argand Diagram

[-] MotoAsh@lemmy.world 4 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Fun fact: exponents and multiplication DO work like rotation ... in the complex domain (numbers with their imaginary component). It's not a pure rotation unless it's scalar, but it's neat.

I know I explained that the worst ever, but 3blue1brown on YT talks about it and many other advanced math concepts in a lovely intuitive way.

[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 3 points 10 months ago

Because it works

[-] oce@jlai.lu 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

It's the sign rather than the absolute value of the multiplicator that defines a rotation of 180° for - or 360°/0° for +.

[-] underwire212@lemm.ee 37 points 10 months ago

“It absolutely, definitely makes sense”

[-] solomon42069@lemmy.world 34 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Turn Around. Every now and then I get a little bit lonely and you're never coming 'round...

[-] dQw4w9WgXcQ@lemm.ee 31 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

A pretty general explanation is that a number consists of an length and an angle on the number line. Positive numbers have angle = 0. Negative numbers have angle = pi (or 180° if you want to work with degrees instead of radians).

Multiplication is an operation where you add together the angles to retrieve the resulting angle and multiply together lengths to get the resulting length (yes, kinda recursive, but we're only working with purely positive numbers here).

So 3 * (-3) means
Length = 3 * 3 = 9
Angle = 0 + pi = pi (or 0 + 180° = 180°)

Of course this is very pedantic, but it works in more complex scenarios as well (pun intended).

Imaginary numbers have angle pi/2 (or 90°) or 3pi/2 (or 270°). So if you for instance want to find the square root of i, you can solve it by finding the length:

1 = x * x

And angle:

pi/2 = y + y
(can use modulus 2pi to acquire 2 solutions here)

Solving the equations and resolving the real and imaginary part with trigonometry, we get

1/sqrt(2) + 1/sqrt(2)*i

And

-1/sqrt(2) - 1/sqrt(2)*i

[-] RedAggroBest@lemmy.world 20 points 10 months ago

It's all just circles all the way down

[-] TangledHyphae@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

I'm sure circles fit into string theory somehow too.

[-] clay_pidgin@sh.itjust.works 6 points 10 months ago

I've never thought of numbers having a direction in a number line, that's great. Thank you for explaining it this way!

[-] DrDominate@lemmy.world 26 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

If you are curious about the math logic side of this like I was, here's the explanation.

Multiplying is just like addition.

3 * 3 = 3 + 3 + 3 = 9

Simple enough but what if one is negative?

3 * (-3) = (-3) + (-3) + (-3) = -9

Also easy, all we changed was the signs of the 3's being added together. But what do you change if you make both of them negative? The only thing left to change is the operation sign. Thus multiplying two negatives is like subtracting negatives.

(-3) * (-3) = - (-3) - (-3) - (-3) = 3 + 3 + 3 = 9

Notice that I placed a negative sign in front of the first (-3). That first one has to be subtracted as well so you can imagine a zero in front of the operation.

Edited: Some formatting.

[-] myslsl@lemmy.world 1 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Copy pasted from my other comment:

This doesn't work if you have to deal with multiplication of numbers that are not integers. You can adjust your idea to work with rational numbers (i.e. ratios of integers) but you will have trouble once you start wanting to multiply irrational numbers like e and pi where you cannot treat multiplication easily as repeated addition.

The actual answer here is that the set of real numbers form a structure called an ordered field and that the nice properties we are familiar with from algebra (for ex that a product of two negatives is positive) can be proved from properties of ordered fields.

[-] DacoTaco@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago

Before i ask my question, know that my math is all the way in the back of my head and i didnt get too far in math at school.

Wdym irrational numbers dont work? -3 * -pi would be the same as 3*pi, no?
I always assumed if all factors of the multiplication are negative, it results in the same as the positive variant, no matter the numbers ( real, fractal, irrational, .. )

[-] nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz 2 points 10 months ago

3 pi = pi + pi +pi

Sure thats okay, but what about e * pi?

[-] myslsl@lemmy.world 2 points 10 months ago

Multiplying two negative irrational numbers together will still give you a positive number, it's just that you can't prove this by treating multiplication as repeated addition like you can multiplication involving integers (note that 3 is an integer, 3 is not irrational, the issue is when you have two irrationals).

So, for example with e * pi, pi isn't an integer. No matter how many times we add e to itself we'll never get e * pi.

Try it yourself: Assume that we can add e to itself k (a nonnegative integer) times to get the value e * pi. Then e * pi = ke follows by basic properties of algebra. If we divide both sides of this equation by e we find that pi=k. But we know k is an integer, and pi is not an integer. So, we have reached a contradiction and this means our original assumption must be false. e * pi can't be equal to e added to itself k times (no matter which nonnegative integer k that we pick).

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[-] jas0n@lemmy.world 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Fun fact... a formal definition of irrational numbers didn't exist until the 1880s (150+ years after Newton died). There were lots of theories before that time (including that they didn't exist) and they were mostly ignored. Iirc, it was Euler's formal definition of complex numbers and e (an irrational number) that led to renewed interest.

E: Richard Dedekind

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[-] Classy@sh.itjust.works 13 points 10 months ago

The snark in that first reply is glorious.

[-] unreachable@lemmy.world 6 points 10 months ago

TIL math logic

[-] jyoskykid@sh.itjust.works 5 points 10 months ago
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this post was submitted on 11 Jan 2024
1113 points (98.5% liked)

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