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[-] ShaunaTheDead@kbin.social 117 points 9 months ago

The reason the bus driver has a seat belt and the kids don't is because the kids have a padded seat back in front of them to stop them from launching forward in a crash. The bus driver has nothing but glass and the open road in front of them to stop them from launching forward in a crash. And seat belts help protect the bus driver from the airbags as they deploy from the steering wheel which have been known to deploy so forcefully that if you're not wearing a seat belt they can kill you, and even in some extreme circumstances completely decapitate you.

Also as someone else pointed out the kids could get trapped in their seats in the event of a fire. The bus driver has a little seat belt cutting tool available to them, but in a fire they might not have time to cut 72 seat belts to free all of the kids on a big bus.

You might ask, well what if the bus rolls? It's pretty unlikely that the bus would roll because bus drivers are trained pretty extensively and have to go through periodic medical exams and driving exams to make sure they're capable of doing the job safely. Even if the bus were in a situation where it might roll, it's very bottom heavy so it would take quite a lot to get it to tip over.

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 48 points 9 months ago

Other countries have seatbelts on school buses, so it's not exactly some cut and dry question.
It's not even the case in all US states.

The NTSB recommends that we start enforcing seat belts on school buses.
https://www.ntsb.gov/Advocacy/safety-topics/Pages/schoolbuses.aspx

They agree with what you said, but disagree that the risk of being trapped outweighs the risk of being fired face first into a seat back.

[-] ShaunaTheDead@kbin.social 4 points 9 months ago

Interesting. I live in southern Ontario and we definitely don't have seat belts on buses here.

[-] Perfide@reddthat.com 4 points 9 months ago

We mostly don't here in the US, either. It's not federally required for them to have seat belts, but that may change in the future based off things like the NTSB's recommendation.

[-] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 31 points 9 months ago

An interesting stat about school buses is that over the last 20 years or so, there has been a roughly equal number of bus driver deaths and passenger deaths. Since a school bus typically carries a much larger number of passengers (as many as 70 or more) than drivers (1), this means that the risk of death for the driver is far higher than that for the passengers (although exactly how much riskier it is is difficult to determine from the published data).

Another interesting safety feature of school buses is that the bus bodies are clipped to the chassis rails rather than being bolted or welded to them and thus are held in place solely by friction. This is so that the bus body can slide forward a couple of feet along the rails in the event of a head-on collision, which greatly reduces the deceleration forces experienced by the passengers (this crash test video shows the phenomenon clearly). This does not help the driver much either as they're sliding forward into the engine compartment or into the oncoming vehicle in the case of flat-front buses.

It’s pretty unlikely that the bus would roll

Yeah, buses really aren't going to roll unless they get hit hard on the side by an equally-large vehicle traveling at a high speed - or unless they run afoul of some mythbusters.

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[-] Laticauda@lemmy.ca 24 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

The fire stuff makes some degree of sense but the "padded seat" thing doesn't. 1) they aren't very padded in the back, and 2) by that logic people wouldn't need to wear seatbelts if they sat in a back seat in any car.

[-] ShaunaTheDead@kbin.social 29 points 9 months ago

The other advantage of buses is that they have a lot of inertia due to their mass. The most likely thing for them to hit is a car and most likely because that car made a mistake. The bus can easily push a car out of the way without losing too much velocity. The same is not true of your average civilian vehicle.

[-] Perfide@reddthat.com 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)
  1. by that logic people wouldn't need to wear seatbelts if they sat in a back seat in any car.

That logic is the exact reason in some places it is(was? My info is a few years old.) legal for adults in the back seat to not wear a seat belt. Not saying I agree with the logic, but that actually is the case in some places.

[-] ChickenLadyLovesLife@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago

they aren’t very padded in the back

They're not exactly well-padded, but other than the outer frame of the backs (which is 1" square steel tubing), the backs are made from stamped 30-gauge sheet steel which deforms quite readily on impact. Kids can get bruised in collisions by impacting the seat backs but they're usually not badly hurt.

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[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 17 points 9 months ago

"padded seat back in front"

I haven't had to take a school bus in 20 years but from what I remember there isn't much padding over the frame that goes around the back so I wouldn't want to get that in my face in a crash!

[-] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 11 points 9 months ago

I was a chaperone on a school trip last year, and the bus had about 3" of foam padding over the frame and just vinyl on the seat back. Plus the sides of the bus were just bare aluminum with screws and sharp corners.

[-] pearsaltchocolatebar@discuss.online 13 points 9 months ago

I just want to point out that decapitation, in a medical sense, doesn't necessarily mean the head is removed from the body. You can be internally decapitated.

[-] ShaunaTheDead@kbin.social 6 points 9 months ago
[-] NikkiDimes@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago

Like...brain stem shearing? Yuck.

[-] Lesrid@lemm.ee 4 points 9 months ago

Not necessarily. There are stories of horsemen getting bucked while staying in the saddle and having to hold their head up by the hair while riding to medical attention. They didn't become quadriplegic but the internal decapitation lost them control of their neck.

Not too sure why it isn't considered a broken neck though

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 10 points 9 months ago

If you dislocate your elbow, you didn't break a bone, the joint just came unhinged.
Your spine is a set of joints.
An internal decapitation is basically a "dislocated skull".

It's only because we have a special word for "head came off" that it's a bit mixed up.

Colloquially, you probably could call it a broken neck, since I don't know if anyone particularly cares if the spinal nerve damage was because bone fractured or just came loose, outside of a medical professional.

[-] Trainguyrom@reddthat.com 7 points 9 months ago

There are stories of horsemen getting bucked while staying in the saddle and having to hold their head up by the hair while riding to medical attention

Fuck I was not prepared for that horrifying of a read at 3pm on Thursday

[-] wander1236@sh.itjust.works 10 points 9 months ago

School bus drivers have more oversight than police huh?

[-] pearsaltchocolatebar@discuss.online 16 points 9 months ago

Hair stylists have more oversight than police.

[-] prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works 7 points 9 months ago

School bus drivers are going under significantly less training and requirements in my affluent DC suburb, since Covid at least.

They don’t get paid shit and they’re privatizing the school busses :(

[-] driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br 6 points 9 months ago

Iirc, Mythbuster tried to roll a bus and couldn't.

[-] Sotuanduso@lemm.ee 5 points 9 months ago

What do you mean it's not capitalism being evil again?

[-] mvirts@lemmy.world 20 points 9 months ago

Nah it's so kids don't get trapped in a fire

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 32 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Nope, it's literally a cost benefit analysis.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/document/seat-belts-large-school-buses

NTSB recommends seatbelts, NHTSA says they would save lives, but the cost or complexity might reduce usage, and school buses are safer than being dropped off at school, so the cost isn't justified.

[-] ButtDrugs@lemm.ee 37 points 9 months ago

I mean, this is showing the school bus fatalities are insanely low (just 5 total in 37 years in AL) and we should instead use funding to make the more dangerous parts of student transportation safer. This seems like using data to make sure we are making informed choices that will actually increase safety for a larger number of kids instead of wasting resources.

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 19 points 9 months ago

That is precisely what it is.
It's literally a cost benefit analysis showing that while seatbelts make riders safer, they aren't thought to be the best way to make things as safe as possible.

It's not about fire safety.

[-] ButtDrugs@lemm.ee 12 points 9 months ago

Ok yeah that makes sense to me. Just when I heard it was because of a "cost benefit analysis " I think of some bigwigs saying "fuck them kids it's too expensive to keep them alive", vs the somewhat surprising reality here. Thanks for sharing.

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 6 points 9 months ago

Yeah, it's a shame that the phrase cost benefit analysis has gotten a bad reputation.

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[-] MajorHavoc@programming.dev 7 points 9 months ago

The "better spend resources elsewhere" part makes sense. The cost side feels a little dishonest, beacuse when large enough government bodies mandate safety rules, suppliers pick up a lot of the cost, under "the cost of doing business".

[-] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 9 months ago

Usually seat belts are made to be ejected by a simple button and spring mechanism. We perfected the technology decades ago.

[-] DadVolante@sh.itjust.works 6 points 9 months ago

Cool. Now try to get a 1rst grader to use one when it's panicking

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[-] rowrowrowyourboat@sh.itjust.works 10 points 9 months ago

The CBC's "The Fifth Estate" did a whole show about this.

https://youtu.be/bcnSpQdeG3M?si=kEaXz_CfU8nqXfJq

[-] yamanii@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

People are doing all kinds of justifications to why school buses don't have seatbelts, but why don't regular public transportation buses have seatbelts?

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[-] joel_feila@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago

I assumed it was kids cant beat each other with them

[-] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 9 points 9 months ago

It’s because in the event of an emergency it is harder to get them out

[-] MeatPilot@lemmy.world 17 points 9 months ago

Indeed, much easier to pick their mangled bodies off the street.

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[-] Bread@sh.itjust.works 5 points 9 months ago

Makes you wonder why the driver gets a seatbelt when the kids do not.

[-] BB69@lemmy.world 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Because an adult should know how to unbuckle themselves in a rollover accident.

And the driver is at a different impact point

[-] Bread@sh.itjust.works 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

In a rollover accident, you also risk kids getting tossed around like clothes in a dryer and ejected from the vehicle if the windows are open or break. I can't say I think that is a better option. It is a risk vs reward scenario here. In a fire you can get out easier, in a rollover, you turn the bus into a drink mixer if it is going fast enough into the roll.

[-] BeanGoblin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 points 9 months ago

Buses are built so they are very unlikely to roll. If they do, everyone was probably screwed anyway.

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[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 5 points 9 months ago

The back of the seat if front of the students is higher and softer than the steering wheel in front of the driver.
As unfortunate as it sounds, in most accidents kids can't bounce around much and mostly hit something soft enough to keep injuries minor or at least nonfatal.

For a long time the numbers worked out that that was enough for most bus accidents to protect students, and that seatbelt costs would be better spent increasing safety at pickup and dropoff locations and increasing bus ridership numbers, since even without seatbelts a school bus is radically safer than being driven to school or walking in most places.

More recently, the numbers have started to say we should invest in seatbelts and making pedestrian routes to schools safer, since those would now make a more significant impact.

[-] CustardFist@feddit.nl 4 points 9 months ago

I LOVE statistics (78% of the time)! 😃📊

[-] wabafee@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Is the reasoning for the comic, like it's cheaper for a funeral cost than someone who survives and incur cost during recovery not including the chance for a lawsuit on both scenario?

[-] ricecake@sh.itjust.works 6 points 9 months ago

The actual reasoning by the NHTSA is that busses are statistically safer than other methods of getting to school, and that adding and requiring seatbelts reduces ridership, which pushes students to less safe ways of getting to school, and also costs money that isn't justified by the number of lives and injuries saved.

Statistically, a human life in the US is worth about $7.5 million. So if your intervention costs $8 million and only saves one life, then you're in the hole $500 thousand.

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this post was submitted on 18 Jan 2024
739 points (97.2% liked)

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