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submitted 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) by ExtremeDullard@lemmy.sdf.org to c/mechanicalkeyboards@lemmy.ml

I'm not a true mechanical keyboard enthusiast. I mean I like a good keyboard for typing code, so I rolled with model-Ms in the 80s and 90s, then some expensive Cherry keyboard I only recently retired because it was utterly spent (and it was PS/2), and now I happily use a Wooting Two HE.

I'm so glad the mechanical gaming keyboard scene has developed so much: it means there's a plethora of really excellent keyboards for the rest of us who don't play games.

But something utterly baffles me: why are high-quality keyboards getting smaller?

There's a lot more keyboards without the numpad and the block of middle keys - whatever they're called - or with the middle keys reduced or squashed up awkwardly on the side, than full-size plain old 102- or 104-key layout keyboards. What's wrong with the numpad? Isn't more keys generally better?

Back in the days, I bought the original Happy Hacking keyboard because it kind of made sense to maneuver around in our server room with a small keyboard that took up less space. Typing on it drove me up the wall but it was convenient to carry. And I guess it was also good option for going to LAN parties with a smaller backpack. But other than that, for a keyboard that never leaves your desk, I don't get it.

Are there other advantages to smaller keyboards? Genuine question! I'm not dumping on smaller keyboards: to each his own and if you're happy with yours, more power to you. I'd just like to know why you prefer smaller.

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[-] randomperson@lemmy.today 52 points 9 months ago

Smaller keyboards:

  • Encourage you to move your hands less. Part of this is allowing your mouse to be closer, especially if you’re right handed.
  • Aesthetically look cleaner and less cluttered
[-] Khrux@ttrpg.network 6 points 9 months ago

This is it for me, I basically don't use those keys daily and can access them via a function key when I rarely need them, so I'm gonna prioritise the aesthetics and compactness.

[-] mondoman712@lemmy.ml 7 points 9 months ago

For me, having the symbols I use in a function layer is better than having them spread around, because I don't have to move my hands as much.

[-] Mesophar@lemm.ee 4 points 9 months ago

Point 2 is absolutely subjective, though. Personally, I think a full size or TKL look a lot better than a compact. It's too distracting seeing something "missing" from a traditional setup. Though, I also like to have my keyboard and mouse a good distance from each other and spread out, rather than close and centered in front of me.

[-] DrownedRats@lemmy.world 29 points 9 months ago

I'm one of those weirdos who actually really likes using a smaller keyboard so I'll give you a few reasons I like smaller keyboard and a few why I don't like larger ones.

First of all, desk space. I have a very small desk so not having the numpad makes for a lot more space for my mouse.

I also find when gaming that my arms fall at a weird and uncomfortable angle when I have the keyboard and mouse at a comfortable distance apart.

I don't tend to use the numpad, or 9 key cluster above the arrow keys very often so the ones I do use (delete, Pg up and Pg down) are just mapped to a new layer. My board is ortholinear so I've also got the numpad mapped to a layer if I ever want to use it.

The function row is also re-mapped over the number row with the - and + acting as 11 and 12 because I very rarely need to use a function key and a number key at the same time or in quick succession so theres no need for the seperate keys.

I don't program much but when I do, I've got all the relevant symbols labelled with their layers on the front of the cap so they're not hard to find when I need them.

I'm also very much not a tidy desk person and I do a lot of my hobby work at my desk so having a nice small keyboard I can cram wherever I can when I need it and just move out of the way when I don't means I'm not always shuffling stuff around my desk to make space for this huge keyboard.

Overall however, I just really like the look of a nice, small, compact keyboard with everything I need just there. It's visually nice to have a uniform block of keys with no gaps, no larger or differently shaped keys, and that's just not something a larger keyboard offers me.

I can absolutely see how this sort of thing doesn't work for most people because there is an element of having to re-learn muscle memory and such, but for most people that have tried it, they seem to find that when it works, it works very well!

[-] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 6 points 9 months ago

I'm terribly disappointed there isn't a picture of your keyboard to visualize what you're saying.

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[-] fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de 18 points 9 months ago

Hoo boy. This is an issue close to my heart about which I could talk for an unreasonable length of time.

I'm an accountant. Yes, spreadsheets. I always thought I you'd have to pry my numpad from my cold dead hands.

About 6 months ago I bought one of the saucy little mech boards of which you speak. A keychron k6. It was a whimsical purchase. It would make my thinkpad set up look better when I posted pictures to /r/thinkpad.

Turns out, I love using it so much that I can do without a numpad.

The core element to answer your "why not full size" question is simply that this little harlot fits in my backpack, where a 100% board would not.

Anyhow, I have a d-pad, and 2x function keys that can modify any key to whatever you want. So I don't miss having any of the extra special keys. It took surprisingly little time to get used to.

On occasion, I do have to grind through entering a list of numbers, but it's really not that often and doesn't take that much extra time.

[-] axo10tl@sopuli.xyz 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I do have to grind through entering a list of numbers

Have you considered a numpad layer? They're great. All of the speed and convenience with none of the wasted space or extra arm movements.

I have a numpad for both hands on my Redox :-)

Woah that's cool. Gonna check that out.

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[-] MayonnaiseArch@beehaw.org 15 points 9 months ago

A mystery for me, the numpad is essential and at least 60 percent of the nav cluster is in constant use. And I prefer the full keyboard look

[-] Kir@feddit.it 18 points 9 months ago

The numpad Is essential or completely useless based on the PC usecase

[-] MayonnaiseArch@beehaw.org 3 points 9 months ago

Yeah, that seems to be the case

[-] Empricorn@feddit.nl 3 points 9 months ago

PC players never use a spreadsheet or the calculator...?

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[-] Metafalls_@beehaw.org 2 points 9 months ago

Chances are: they are there on smaller keyboards too. It might not be in the usual spot while also hidden behind a layer but its there.

This used to be a showstopper back when most of the available keyboards are not fully customizable firmware-wise. With the advent of QMK and VIA(L) on a lot of readily available keyboards, however, you can pretty much put any functionalities anywhere on any layer(s) you see fit.

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[-] papabobolious@feddit.nu 12 points 9 months ago

I don't know but I feel the same. My main gripe is with media keys, because I don't want Fn key combinations, but dedicated media buttons, which is increasingly rare. The most appealing keyboard I have laid eyes on recently is Das Keyboard which has a volume wheel, media keys and is full size, but it's very pricey and not perfect still.

[-] You999@sh.itjust.works 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

The avarage user doesn't need all the buttons accessible at every moment as such are willing to trade convenience for space saving and cost reduction. Some people though mainly professionals with hyper specific niches go the opposite direction and trade space and cost for oversized keyboards in the name of efficiency.

Trading terminal keyboards are the easiest keyboards to point to utilizing their additional keys for more streamline trading in an era before algorithmic trading

Belive it or not just like click switches, large keyboards still popup within the mech keyboard community. Hyper 7 being the most well known (and has a group buy currently going) but there's also the wombat 200% which features twenty rotary encoders. Some people have been getting the best of both worlds by utilizing a modular mindset. A 75% keyboard with an external numpad and macro pad has the same functionality as a battleship.

[-] pedestrian@links.hackliberty.org 11 points 9 months ago

I have a 40% ortholinear kb because it's more ergonomic. My fingers are never have to travel more than 2 keys away from home row. There are enough built in layers that I never feel like I'm missing a key. All keys are remappable. Beyond that I think it looks neat - folks always ask about it when they see it. When using a mouse and keyboard, my arms are kept at a reasonable distance apart (overall hands are closer together), so I can work or game longer without feeling like my shoulders or back are strained.

[-] sloppy_diffuser@sh.itjust.works 11 points 9 months ago

I use keyboards in the 40%-65% range. For me it is about reduced travel. Almost no travel for typing any key and minimal travel for the mouse.

I wouldn't use a keyboard that small if it wasn't for QMK, the open source keyboard firmware. We essentially have dedicated layer keys. A key when tapped or held remaps the keyboard. For myself that is usually caps lock and a couple keys on the bottom row. I select keyboards that have the space bar split into 3-4 keys for this to work. 4 is preferred to put backspace next to space.

With 40 keys and 3 layers that's (40 keys - 3 layer keys) * (1 base layer + 3 activated layers) = 148 keys within reach of home row. A full size is around 120 keys.

I'm used to software using "leader" keys like vim and tmux, so it never really bothered me to use layers. I don't get why anyone would want their hands always moving to reach keys since I started using layers.

[-] ExtremeDullard@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I'm a heavy VI user, but the one thing I can't stand is HJKL navigation. Damn that to hell and back: I'd much rather stay in edit mode and move around with the arrow keys. HJKL can burn in hell. As for the numpad, I don't use it too often, but when I have to type rows and rows of numbers in my code for some reason, I really miss it. And that curiously happens often enough that I prefer the numpad to remain firmly attached to the rest of the keyboard.

The mouse being closer isn't an issue for me because, as I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I use a trackball.

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[-] ahto@feddit.de 9 points 9 months ago

I switched to a TKL (tenkeyless) to reduce the distance between my hands when my right hand is on the mouse, and it feels so much better.

I got a programmable keyboard, so I remapped the keys around where my right hand rests to be the numpad keys when I hold the capslock key. That way I can still have the convenience of the numpad without having an actual dedicated numpad, although I'm still getting used to using it this way.

[-] JJROKCZ@lemmy.world 9 points 9 months ago

I don’t get it either, but I also with with AS400s daily and therefore need f1-24 and I’m not going to deal with all the layering setup needed for that when I can get a normal keyboard and hit shift+F4 for F16 instead of shift+left ctrl+F4. It doesn’t seem like much but when you’re using F13-24 a lot then it gets annoying.

I also want numpad, I don’t want to type IP schemes on the number row

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[-] Metafalls_@beehaw.org 9 points 9 months ago
  • QMK (rather, "easily" accessible keyboard firmware creator) makes keyboard less and less reliant on having a dedicated button for all of the functionalities provided by full size.
  • No need to move out of homerow is super nice, especially if you dont need to use your mouse frequetly.
  • its nice
[-] atan@lemmy.ml 8 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

For most users/use cases, there isn't a need for for so many dedicated keys - if they are prepared to learn layouts with multiple layers. There are several notable advantages: cost, portability, reduced footprint (keeping hands closer together when using mouse and keyboard), and reduced finger travel/stretch. These last two are good preventative measures for carpal tunnel.

I chose a 40% ortholinear keyboard specifically because I make heavy use of the numpad in my work. I keep the numpad on one of four layers and I find using it to be quicker and more seamless to transition to than when using a full sized keyboard. I only wish that more manufacturers made ortholinear layouts....

[-] MrScottyTay@sh.itjust.works 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I use a 64 key keyboard. Barely have to move any of my fingers which is great for reducing my RSI. I hate how standard keyboards just have this one giant key for your thumb. Your thumb is your strongest digit and it's just used to slap this slab. On the ortho keyboards I've become more used to recently often have a thumb cluster so you can have all of your modifiers and whatnot there. Less stretching with your pinky for ctrl, fn whatever (which is how I got my RSI). Having enter, shift, backspace and delete at my ... Thumbtips ... Is a game changer.

[-] HatchetHaro@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 9 months ago

Gamers generally want more room on the desk so their mice can travel further without needing to be repositioned.

I love having a numpad for extra keybinds in MMOs and for number inputs for work, but I've since switched to a TKL and never looked back.

I still miss the numpad but that thing can be bought separately, and not smashing my mouse into my keyboard is a big plus.

Looking into upgrading to a Wooting 80HE once that launches; it's like a TKL that wants to be questionably special, but given Wooting's reputation I'd wager it'd still be better than anything else on the market.

[-] radix@lemm.ee 7 points 9 months ago

I liked having less space between my hands (left hand on the keyboard, right hand on the mouse). I also rarely use the numpad and other keys, so the negligible sacrifice was worth it for better ergonomics.

[-] GeekySalsa@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

I love using 65% boards. Main reason being that I get more desk space, more space for my mouse, more ergonomic as my mouse hand doesn't have to be as far to the right (this is particularly better for gaming), it's easier to travel with if the need arises, and I just think they look neat.

[-] spookex@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

No idea, I really like having the numpad and all of the other keys that the full layout has on my Varmillo VA108

[-] dubyakay@lemmy.ca 5 points 9 months ago

I like having more real estate for the mouse. If I need the numpad, I just reach for it.

I can live without the nav cluster. I can just Fn+arrows for pgup/dn/home/end. But can't live without arrows.

Size comparison

[-] ExtremeDullard@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 9 months ago

I like having more real estate for the mouse

It seems many people who answered here also want a smaller keyboard to position the mouse closer to the centerline, or make room for the mouse.

Perhaps I should mention my own setup then: I don't use a mouse 🙂 I use this - rather confusingly named - fabulous trackball: the Kensington Expert Mouse:

This is the best trackball ever. It's been around for many years. People who like trackballs swear by it, and I can't do without it.

The trackball is right up against the keyboard. So even though I use a full-size 104-key keyboard, the "mouse" is ergonomically placed and doesn't require a lot of space.

[-] dubyakay@lemmy.ca 2 points 9 months ago

How does a trackball hold up when playing vidya that requires a mouse normally? RTS, ARPG, Indie Rogue lites, FPS, basically anything that may require twitch, precision and traversal.

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[-] apfel@lemmy.world 5 points 9 months ago

I wrote a short Introduction to Small Keyboards a while ago for the guys from keeb.supply when they first stocked kits for my Zilpzalp keyboard.

Maybe it'll help understand some of the appeal of small boards and how to productively use them 😊

[-] MrFunnyMoustache@lemmy.ml 5 points 9 months ago

I've never used the numpad when I did have a full sized keyboard, and I want a smaller keyboard because the distance from the mouse and the WASD is smaller, which is more comfortable for me when gaming, but also when switching between typing and navigating with the mouse, the shorter distance is more pleasant.

I use a 75% keyboard because I don't want a numpad, but I do want the arrow keys and F row without needing a function layer for them.

[-] jol@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 9 months ago

I rather have my keys closer to the mouse. I don't miss having a num pad at all.

[-] nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 9 months ago

I've recently built and am transitioning to a 50-key split-ergo keyboard. I code for a living so, a bit of getting used to, to be honest. The big advantage is in ergonomics and portability. Fewer keys means that fingers have less travel distance.

[-] wonderfulvoltaire@lemmy.world 4 points 9 months ago

I like the ability to remove or add the numb pad depending on the work or play.

[-] ExtremeDullard@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 9 months ago

Okay that makes sense: it means you have a full-size keyboard for work, a mini keyboard for gaming and you use whichever works best for you for the task at hand.

But that implies there are a lot more gamers with a preference for smaller keyboards than general-purpose typists with a preference for the full-size traditional layout, because the majority of the quality mechanical keyboards offering is smaller keyboards. I have a hard time believing the gaming market is larger than the general computing market.

Or maybe gamers pay more attention to the quality of their keyboards and spend more money on them, making them a more attractive demographic.

[-] slampisko@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago

Some part of that is that a lot of the mech keyboards are DIY projects, and smaller keyboards are cheaper and simpler to put together.

I personally am a split ergonomic keyboard enjoyer. I use a Keebio Iris at work and a Unikeyboard Diverge TM2 at home, which are a 50% and 40% respectively, both split.

The thing that I like the most about small form factor keebs is that compared to a full keeb, I don't have to move my hands so much to do basic and oft-repeated tasks. I don't think about it as removing keys as much as bringing them closer to my fingers. For example, on a 40% keeb, all keys are within 1u away from your fingers' home position.

I am totally in love with programmable layers. I programmed both of my keebs similarly. Examples:

  • The key to the left from the A key, usually the Caps Lock key, is a dual-role key on my keebs. When you press it, it acts as Esc, and when you hold it, it acts as Ctrl.
  • I have a key on the left half that makes my right half into a number pad. Just like that, I completely eliminate the need for a physical one, and I don't even have to move my hand to use it.
  • Switching tabs (Ctrl + Tab, Ctrl + Shift + Tab) is a very often used pair of shortcuts for me, and they're relatively uncomfortable to press on a full keyboard. I moved them to a much more comfortable position - I hold a key with my thumb and switch tabs with two of my other fingers without having to move any fingers from their home position.
  • I use virtual desktops in Windows quite a lot for working in different contexts and I mapped switching desktops (Ctrl + Win + arrow keys) to a similarly accessible/comfortable position, same with some others like Alt + F4.
  • I am a software developer and function keys (F1-F12) are quite frequently used in IDEs, especially in combination with modifiers (Ctrl, Shift, Alt). With a full keeb you often need to move both of your hands quite far from the home positions to press those combinations. With a small keeb, I use one of my hands to press the modifiers (which I mapped to the home row in most of my layers) and a finger from the other hand moves just 1u up from the home row.

Of course it takes a bit of trial and error, changing the way you think about how the keyboard works, and retraining your muscle memory, but as a person who spends 8+ days working with computers, I think it's ultimately worth the investment of time, money and effort to make my weapon of choice as ergonomic and comfortable to use as possible.

For when I can't sit at my desk and use an ergonomic keeb, I also made myself an AutoHotkey script that makes the CapsLock of a regular keyboard more useful. It would be for another writeup, but as an example, it makes it act as Esc when you press it and when you hold it, it activates an extra layer -- as an example, it turns the keys HJKL into arrow keys (left, down, up, right) and the keys YUIO into Home, PgDn, PgUp and End, and turns the numeric keys into function keys. I can still work with a full-sized keyboard, but whenever I am forced to, I am reminded how clunky it is and I long for my keeb or at least my AHK script.

In summary, small keebs are cheaper and easier to make, and they bring all the keys closer to your fingertips, making it more efficient and comfortable than full keebs, with the small cost of retraining your muscle memory.

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[-] algernon@lemmy.ml 3 points 9 months ago

I use a keyboard with 64 keys (Keyboardio Model 100), with a layout that would likely drive any normal person mad: there are no numbers on the base layer, and all modifiers are on the thumb cluster. My top row is shifted symbols like @*$^%!&. I love it. I can reach every key without moving my hand, which helped tremendously with my RSI. With clever use of layers, one-shot modifiers & layers (where one-shot means that you press and release a modifier, and it remains active for the next keypress only), I have access to every symbol available on a traditional layout and more, without having to move my hand or do weird finger gymnastics.

It's not a keyboard I'd normally carry (it's heavy, split, and takes up more space than a traditional full-size one), that's not why I like it small. I like it small because I don't need to move my hand to reach all the keys, and that increases my typing comfort a lot. I have no use for a dedicated numpad: I can just press my right palm key and turn that half of my keyboard into a numpad. If I'm typing a single digit, I don't even need to hold the palm key. If I'm typing a longer number, I can double tap the palm key to toggle the numpad layer on, and tap it a third time once I'm done. I don't need cursor keys, because I can tap the left palm key to turn the keyboard into navigation mode: the right side controls the text cursor (ie, arrow keys, page up/down, home/end), and the left side controls the mouse. Most of the time, I don't even need a mouse, because I can control the pointer from the comfort of my keyboard. I do have a trackball placed inbetween the two halves for the rare cases where I require more mousing than what is comfortable with keys, but... that's not used all that often.

So, in short, the reason I prefer small and split is because they let me type without moving my hand, or stretching my fingers uncomfortably, and I still have convenient access to every symbol I need. I might need to do a bit more "work" to type certain things, but that's a small price to pay for the comfort I gain by not having to move my hands.

I can write at ~120WPM with this setup (but I normally don't need to, my normal typing speed is closer to ~60WPM, because my speed is limited by thinking speed, not my typing speed), I write code with this, I write prose in both English and Hungarian, and I even play some games with it! (Most games I play with a controller though, because I can do that from the couch.)

Just because it is small doesn't mean it can't do everything a full-sized keyboard can. I just do the same things in a different way, with different compromises. With a full-sized one, if you want to type numbers, you either have to move your hand to the numpad, or use two hands to type something like 1994. I can type that number with one hand, without moving my hand: instead of moving hands, I switch layers. With a full-sized keyboard, if you need Home, End, PageUp, PageDown or the like, you either need to move your hand, or you need whatever program you're using to have different bindings for the same functionality. I can just press a key to go into navigation mode, and move the cursor whatever way I like, without moving my hands, or finding an alternative binding - works in every program, anywhere - instead of moving hands, I press an extra key. I found that pressing an extra key (especially if I don't need to hold it) is more comfortable than moving hands. I also found that not moving my hands increased my accuracy, because I don't need to find the home position when moving my hand back: it never moved in the first place.

[-] Bougie_Birdie@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 9 months ago

I was team numpad all the way, but then I received a 60% as a gift and I have to say, I'm quite impressed with it.

It's pretty decent for gaming, you get more desktop real-estate for your mouse which is a huge plus. I'd also hazard a guess and say that the smaller size is more attractive for the average computer user.

Now that everything seems to take USB-C it's really easy to swap out your board for something more suitable for your task. So if you really need a numpad, you can just swap your full size board back in.

Depending on your use case, you might be surprised how far you can get with a 60%. I thought the lack of arrow keys and F1-12 was really going to bite me, but I can use them easily enough for most cases - but not always. For instance, I wish I could still select text with Ctrl + Shift + arrow/home/end, but that's out of reach now. But for 99% of my usage, it gets the job done.

[-] apfel@lemmy.world 3 points 9 months ago

tbh it sounds like what you need is better firmware configuration if these things are out of reach. a common approach is to make the spacebar a tap-hold key that outputs space on tap and switches to another layer on hold. on that layer you could bind arrow keys on ijkl, for example, and still have shift, alt, ctrl in easy reach.

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[-] Comradesexual@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 9 months ago

I'm a severe numpad hater but I hate when they also steal the arrow keys.

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[-] zkfcfbzr@lemmy.world 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I'm a 65% user and it's great. The only keys right of the main block that I ever really use are delete, PrtSc, and the arrow keys - so all a full size keyboard does for me is force me to awkwardly bend my arms to the left as I type. I especially dislike numpads on laptop keyboards for that reason.

And I work with numbers a lot. I just prefer the number row. I have remapped the rightmost column of keys to more useful functions as well.

[-] BirdyBoogleBop@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

It is because mech keyboards are really expensive and people sacrifice size for affordability. That's one of the main reasons anyway. Also you can then buy a numpad separately, I like a separate numpad.

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this post was submitted on 03 Feb 2024
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