How Russia's economy survived two years of war : worldnews

[-] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 22 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

And this rise was accompanied by a decline in supply as hundreds of thousands of able-bodied Russians went to the front, or fled the country. As a result, Russia is experiencing a labor shortage.

The graph literally shows the opposite, wtf? There is an increase in supply by millions (72m in 2019 to peak 76m in 2023). The supply nearly catches the demand, which means its workforce is more efficient now. Also i really doubt the real demand of work was that high pre-SMO, there wouldn't be that much unemployed people if that was the case, normally it is the supply of workers the one that is higher.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 8 months ago

yeah exactly

[-] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

the graphs are fine, their interpretations are objectively wrong. it seems like they're trying to make russia look bad in every metric lmao.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 25 points 8 months ago

Yup, I also loved this bit at the end:

Amid the war in Ukraine, the Kremlin has managed to continue to acquire essential chips and semiconductors via third countries, and it has successfully switched its oil exports to Asian buyers. However, the current stability is not likely to endure: in 1-2 years, the structure will begin to wobble due to accumulated imbalances, and possible social problems.

The same people who've been consistently wrong about everything for the past two years, and can't even predict what's going to happen in the short term are now confidently predicting that economic stability in Russia is not likely to endure. Like sure yeah, we can totally take their prediction about what's gonna happen 1-2 years from now seriously.

[-] bennieandthez@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

At this point it's just copium, the toughest moment for Russia was immediately after the initial sanctions but it is clear they've managed to deal with the most important shortages, China doing some heavy ass lifting of course, and get buyers for their exports in the global south, they still haven't completely recovered their export volume but the trend is clearly upwards.

I am sure there are some specific industries having problems replacing specialized part numbers, but they will eventually be produced by China or even produced locally in Russia.

If anything Russia will be in a better spot 1-2 years from now with the steady growth of BRICS and the increasing multi-polarity. Really the only way one can reach the conclusion that Russia will collapse anytime from now is from having internalized racism, thinking that Russians are too primitive to produce certain commodities or that the global south is too primitive to fill the gaps.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 8 months ago

Exactly, if sanctions don't work immediately there is zero chance they're going to work later. Economy simply adjusts to work around them, and the longer it goes the more stable it becomes. I mean just look at Iran as an example. The main thing the sanctions are accomplishing is strengthening the BRICS.

The biggest loser in all this will end up being the EU because they genuinely lost something they can't replace. US will be fine because they have their own energy and resources as well as access to whatever Canada's got. I'm also expecting US to ruthlessly cannibalize Europe now that they manged to knock them down a peg. US oligarchs have always been really unhappy with Europe providing a social safety net, and the economic crash provides a perfect opportunity to finally dismantle it.

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

in 1-2 years, the structure will begin to wobble due to accumulated imbalances, and possible social problems.

What he's likely suggesting is that the guns vs butter model will at some point come to play.

Basically it assumes that any increase in defense spending will have to be diverted from social programs. This typically creates imbalances in the domestic economy, as wealth is more effectively distributed back into the economy from social programs when compared to defense spending. This is typically why most governments spend less than 4% on defense spending.

Military spending can be considered a liability unless it's currently being utilized to leverage territory or wealth from an opponent. The returns can lift a country out of an economic slump, but once the war stops and government spending slows, the economic gains tend to collapse.

Now this theory is predicated on a bunch of assumptions, the main one being that an economic model created after WW1 may not be applicable to modern economics......and if that was what the authors intended, they should have led with it. But that's the only legitimate argument I can think of based on the article.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 8 months ago

I mean we also have the US where military spending has been propping up the economy for decades. There are whole states now where military industry is the main source of jobs. So, it's a pretty tenuous to suggest that military spending can't prop up an economy indefinitely.

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 8 points 8 months ago

US where military spending has been propping up the economy for decades.

Yes, and we have witnessed the general decline of social services and social safety nets in equal proportion. And while US spending is significant, it's still only 3%of GDP.

suggest that military spending can't prop up an economy indefinitely.

It can, but it usually requires an indefinite war. It's one of the reasons America is constantly at war. Why spend so much on obtaining an army if it isn't going to be utilized? Especially when a little war can turn a 3 trillion dollar liability into a potential 3 trillion dollar investment?

And again, we are talking about macro economic theory from nearly a century ago. It very well could be a dead theory, we just haven't really had a lot of data opportunities to rebuttal it with.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 8 months ago

The decline in social services and social safety net is not the result of US military spending though.

It can, but it usually requires an indefinite war.

Typically it does, and it's easy to see how Russia could either end up in an indefinite war with the west or just become arms manufacturing hub for the BRICS and start arming countries in Africa, Middle East, and Asia, which is already starting to happen incidentally. Alternatively, the same industry that's being used for weapons manufacturing could be turned to civilian use, which would be a much better scenario. Both the US and USSR ended up doing that to an extend after WW2 ended.

The key point is that there's little evidence to suggest that high military spending will lead to an unstable economy down the road.

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 3 points 8 months ago

The decline in social services and social safety net is not the result of US military spending though.

True, but I tend to give it a little extra weight due to my partiality towards historic materialism. Examined in those terms we could perceive the other causes as a byproduct or consequence of the industrial war complex.

You should read up the history of the guns vs butter model, it's origin is surprisingly based for the 1920s.

Typically it does, and it's easy to see how Russia could either end up in an indefinite war with the west or just become arms manufacturing hub for the BRICS and start arming countries in Africa, Middle East, and Asia, which is already starting to happen incidentally. Alternatively, the same industry that's being used for weapons manufacturing could be turned to civilian use, which would be a much better scenario. Both the US and USSR ended up doing that to an extend after WW2 ended.

Both are possibilities, but their both kinda hard things to plan an actual functioning economy around. Especially under their current preferred economic model. Both would be much easier to achieve under a fully centralized system.

there's little evidence to suggest that high military spending will lead to an unstable economy down the road.

It depends on your perspective. If you're counting on future behavior to mimic your past data set, then you would probably utilize past behavior as "evidence". But then again, if that always worked the rise of the Soviet Union would have been impossible to comprehend as a possibility prior to ww1.

Again, I'm not claiming that the guns vs butter model an undeniable fact. It's just my best guess on how the authors in the article came to their conclusion. But again, they are probably operating on a limited framework that conceptually precludes new ideas or thought.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

For the record, I very much agree that military industry isn't the best way to develop the economy. Ultimately, any effort that goes towards producing weapons is effort that could be directed towards improving the lives of the people in the country. It's just that you can get away producing a lot of useless stuff before there's a serious drag on the economy. Incidentally, military industry is just one example of this. I generally agree with Graeber's bullshit jobs thesis stating that a lot of work is basically just make work with no useful social purpose to it.

Russia is actually fairly centralized at this point. They pretty much had to move back to a planned economy after the war started.

A 2023 World Bank study gives a pretty good overview. In particular, it distinguishes between businesses of the state (BOS), that are at least 10% government owned by some government, and state owned enterprises (SOE), which are majority owned or more, and controlled, by the government.

Top line result is shown in the following chart:

And here's another chart showing SOE in Russia compared with China https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/state-owned-enterprises-global-economy-reason-concern

Russia's high levels of SOEs is not far behind China by many measures.

Central bank plays a big role in Russia as well, and has large influence over the funding of the private enterprise. FT even moaned about state directed economy standing up to sanctions back in 2022.

And I agree with your assessment that the authors most likely did use the guns vs butter model as the basis for their argument. It's not without merit, but I the devil's always in the details. With the world changing as rapidly as it is, I think it's pretty hard to make any predictions regarding what's going to happen a year or two down the road. We're kind of in terra incognita here.

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 4 points 8 months ago

It's just that you can get away producing a lot of useless stuff before there's a serious drag on the economy. Incidentally, military industry is just one example of this. I generally agree with Graeber's bullshit jobs thesis stating that a lot of work is basically just make work with no useful social purpose to it.

I agree, but I feel the real danger of tooling your economy towards military production lies within its inherent inflexibility. Oftentimes it's easier to convince people to turn ploughs into swords than swords back into ploughs.

Russia is actually fairly centralized at this point. They pretty much had to move back to a planned economy after the war started

Yes, but they're still tackling the ghost of Yeltsin. A lot of the centralization is still being organized under the control of the people who rose to power during the implementation of shock therapy. I think they probably should have cooked those particular geese before the war.

With the world changing as rapidly as it is, I think it's pretty hard to make any predictions regarding what's going to happen a year or two down the road. We're kind of in terra incognita here.

Yeap, we've definitely been cursed to live in interesting times. Thanks for the discourse. It's not very often you can air out some conflicting ideas without someone throwing a hissy fit. Cheers.

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 8 months ago

I very much agree, once you create the structures necessary to feed the war machine, there's a lot if incentive to keep them in place. Although, it is worth noting that the problem is worse in the private sector where there is constant need for profit. State owned infrastructure can be repurposed or mothballed much easier. In fact, this article from the guardian mentions that one of the reasons Russia was able to ramp up military production was because they had mothballed factories around for this exact eventuality

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/15/rate-of-russian-military-production-worries-european-war-planners

Also agree that Russia is still dealing with all the problems that resulted from mass privatization. In my view, that's the biggest challenge for Russia going forward. Amusingly the west effectively ended up doing capital controls for Russia via sanctions. It would've been an unpopular measure with the oligarchs if it came from the government, but since it was imposed externally, they had little choice but to get with the program.

And I enjoyed the discussion as well. I find when there is good faith disagreement, that typically means that people are looking at things from a different perspective or they rely on different information to form their view. Having a discussion to figure out the reasons for disagreement tends to enlighten both parties, and the end result is we both get a more nuanced understanding of the subject. So pleasure was all mine. :)

[-] American_Communist22@lemmygrad.ml 21 points 8 months ago

the soviet union just sitting there like

I WONDER HOW THEY HAVE SUCH A GOOD WAR ECONOMY HMMMMMMMMMMMM I WONDER

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 8 months ago

🤣

[+] Spitzspot -23 points 8 months ago

Spoiler alert...it hasn't

[-] yogthos@lemmygrad.ml 17 points 8 months ago

Spoiler alert... somebody can't read or even understand simple pictures

[-] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 8 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

Russia finally admitted they were losing like not even 3 days ago. Source: https://lemmy.ml/post/12360392

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