270
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2024
270 points (92.7% liked)
Asklemmy
44137 readers
993 users here now
A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions
If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!
- Open-ended question
- Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
- Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
- Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
- An actual topic of discussion
Looking for support?
Looking for a community?
- Lemmyverse: community search
- sub.rehab: maps old subreddits to fediverse options, marks official as such
- !lemmy411@lemmy.ca: a community for finding communities
~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
Socialism is the successful successor to Capitalism. Socialism isn't an idea you implement, but a consequence of markets coalescing into monopolist syndicates that make themselves ripe for public ownership and planning.
This is the case only if you believe in Marx
What do you disagree with here? The idea that markets trend towards monopolist syndicates, naturally centralizing production? Or the idea that the Proletariat should sieze these syndicates and plan production democratically and centrally?
I'm not really disagreeing with you to be honest. I'm only saying that your views are the central idea of Marxism. Only Marxists believe in the conflict theory. I'm not a Marxist, but i do think socialism is the next most likely economic stage considering the current capitalist landscape. Whether it is the best path is what i don't know.
I'm a Marxist-Leninist, correct, but the point of Marxism is that it doesn't matter what individuals believe, Capitalism itself paves the way for Socialism just like Feudalism paved the way for Capitalism.
Hmm i don't know about that. Saying that this one theory explains social change is kinda restrictive. There are other valid ideas that aren't the conflict theory that might also result in social change. Think of idealist theories such as Hegel's dialectical process which involves a thesis and antithesis. These theses eventually contradict each other to form a synthesis which eventually becomes its own thesis and vice versa.
I just like to keep an open mind about this stuff, as i don't think social change boils down to just one theory.
I find this reply very strange because it's the core point of Marxism that it's dialectical but materialist. It has a lot of forebears, but Hegel is the most direct and obvious of them.
-- Engels, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific
If we believe that the universe fundamentally makes sense, then it must stem from that that it can all be explained on the same terms. Furthermore, within a domain, the extent to which a theory is unable to explain some part of that domain is the extent to which it either fails or is in-utero just a component of a larger theory whose other parts can cover those other areas. Not only can social change boil down to one theory, if you believe we live in an interconnected, logical world, it must boil down to one theory. Obviously there are many competitors for that title, and none of them are yet developed enough to properly claim it, but it is a legitimate and even a necessary title.
Edit: Sorry for piling on about the dialectics part, I see Cowbee did go over it later. fwiw I think he didn't represent materialism fairly, but part of why I included the Engels quote is because I think he does represent Hegelian idealism and its fundamental problem (How can this dialectic of humans -- material beings -- take place in the world of ideas?) fairly.
Fwiw, i was only spewing things i vaguely remembered from that one sociology course i took, so i was bound to misspeak. Thank you for your insight.
Idealism is wrong, though, so focusing on it is useless IMO.
Now that's where we disagree strongly. You criticize it but have provided no points to debunk it.
The notion that ideas create matter, rather than the opposite, is anti-scientific.
I guess we can agree to disagree
Do you believe ideas to create matter? Am I misunderstanding you?
Not necessarily. I'm just very open minded and refuse to dismiss viewpoints until i am fully knowledgeable about them. I also think the "idea creating matter" part of your argument is a misrepresentation of the theory. It's more of a shift in human history through the evolution of ideas. It's a more philosophical approach to change. For example, the very idea of Marxism is an antithesis to the idea of capitalism. The dialectical theory is basically saying that at some point, these two ideas will be resolved and form a new thesis.
This is my understanding of this theory. Of course, I'm no expert, and i still have a lot to learn, but i don't think it can be easily dismissed. Unless you know something I don't.
My main point is that societal evolution isn't as easy as economics and politics. It's more than that. I only offered the dialectical approach as an example. There are many other theories out there that might explain society in conjunction with the conflict theory.
Actually, this is a misrepresentation of Marxism. Marxism is about Dialectical and Historical Materialism, it isn't a Utopian answer to Capitalism but an analysis of Capitalism and a Materialist prediction of what will replace it. I recommend reading Elementary Principles of Philosophy by Georges Politzer. Capitalism contains within it the seeds of Socialism.
Without being condescending, unless you've read several books on Dialectical and Historical Materialism, as well as Idealism as it has evolved over time, I believe I probably do know more. The Politzer book is fantastic, it goes over the evolution of Idealism, Materialism, Dialectics, and ends in Dialectical and Historical Materialism.
Marxists argue that societal evolition is based on economic and political evolition, dialectically.
I'll tuck my tail between my legs. You definitely know more than me so it's pointless to continue on. Sorry for wasting your time. Thanks for the book recommendations though.
It's not a waste! Anyone who engages with me faithfully and walks away with their mind more open to Marxism-Leninism is a victory for me, doubly-so if they actually read even one of the books, articles, or essays I throw at them, makes my endless debate-broing worth it. Thank you for your time, and feel free to DM me if you have any questions!
Marx has the best content on the topic, shit is so good it triggers daddy owners to this day lol
I kinda like Marx sooo...
I would not say I like some dead guy... But his work is foundational for any self respecting adult imho
With out Understanding these concepts you are ain't fucking operating
Also, elites study him closely and a lot of the regime behavior is actually designed to suppress workers based on his writings.
Ohh the irony.