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this post was submitted on 18 Dec 2024
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You obviously haven't met anyone in central / eastern europe if you think that's something that would happen, and that US would get any say in it. They'll continue on fighting and the US will forever be branded a traitorous country that cannot be trusted for anything.
How can the US be considered a traitorous country when we have no formal treaty with Ukraine. Ukraine isn't part of NATO and we have no defense pact with them. Aide is assistance and it can be withdrawn at any point for any reason. But let me ask you a question. Would you call the US a traitorous country if we withdrew support for Israel? Is it only traitorous if the US stop supporting the wars you want?
Something Something "as long as it takes".
There may not be a formal treaty, but there have been plenty of promises. In diplomacy, you're not just judged based on whether you uphold formal treaties, but also on whether you keep your word in general. By cutting support overnight, the US would be going back on a promise they've made. That's typically not the way you make other countries trust you in future negotiations.
You're either on the side of freedom or democracy or you're not. That simple.
I don't side with people who deal in absolutes. You're disingenuous.
You do, it's called the budapest memorandum. Read up on it, it's as bulletproof as NATO is. The US already ignored it a couple of times actually.
I did read up on the Budapest Memorandum and what you stated is FALSE. That document states that Ukraine (along with Belarus and Kazakhstan) are now parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The US, UK, and Russia have agreed to:
There is nowhere in this Memorandum that states that the US is obligated to render aid or defend the Ukraine. So when you stated:
Explain. How did the US ignore the Memorandum (that is not a treaty)? What incidents were they and when did they occur?
No, I get that. And I really wish they make the Russian invaders suffer. The point I'm trying to make is that without the material support they have been receiving from the USA I don't see a way for Ukraine to keep fighting toe to toe with Russia for long (I hope I'm proven wrong, I really do. But I don't see how).
Of course this doesn't mean that Ukranians are going to roll over and accept this without fighting. But if they decide to continue the resistance, the nature of the conflict will change dramatically. I just don't see how Ukraine can maintain the current stalemate without the huge material support they are receiving today. But if they decide to keep fighting (which I hope they do), this will become an asymetrical conflict like Afghanistan or Vietnam.
Obviously I may be wrong, I hope I'm wrong. But it seems naive to assume nothing is going to change without USA support.
Which still doesn't mean the US gets to dictate peace deals to Ukraine.
Again, in practice yes. The choice Ukranians will get is accept whatever the US negotiates or continue their resistance without US support. In the second case there is simply no. way they don't get steam rolled, and then there is just no negotiation, just occupation.
They will fight without the US. Also you are overestimating how much the US provided, compared to Europe.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/ my man, US alone is more than 50% of total aid. You are just arguing from vibes lol.
it could be 99%. it wouldn't change the fact that Ukraine has no choice. Fight or Die. When the aggressor's terms of peace are essentially "you cease to exist as a sovereign and free nation". you fight the conventional war as long as your can, and if your craven and cowardly allies sell you out, you move the fight to less clean methods. Ukraine had always figured they'd have to move to an insurgency, they just didn't expect to have 3 years of the Ukrainian Army standing its ground and eviscerating the Russian one beforehand.
I think my reply to your other comment applies here (https://lemmy.world/comment/14037207). And in fact the situation is not as bad as I thought, so Ibstand corrected.
You are literally proving me right with your own data. Bilateral aid means "one country to the other". You add up the European Commission to the rest of the countries and it is not even close. Googling and grabbing the first link that "looks scary" isn't how the world works.
Europe has given 135 billion in aid. https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/united-states-america/eu-assistance-ukraine-us-dollars_en?s=253
Which is way more than the US.
Latest data is here: https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-tracker-eur70-billion-in-new-aid-promised/
So yeah, wonder who is the one going off of "vibes" here.
https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/. As of today the split is around 40% US. But the europeans are indeed promising a large increase of aid which can more than cover what the US will stop contributing, I wasn't aware of that. I really hope they deliver, then Ukraine may maintain the stalemate without US support. So the situation is not as bad as I thought jajajaja, nice.