this post was submitted on 06 Oct 2025
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[–] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 43 points 18 hours ago (3 children)

The liberal establishment always abandons effective fellow liberals. Sanders, Mamdani, Thunberg…they’re actually trying to do something. That makes the established neolibs look ineffective and upsets their donors. So they turn their backs on the rabble rousers.

[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

The liberal establishment always abandons effective fellow liberals. Sanders, Mamdani, Thunberg…

This is where there really is a distinction between "liberal" and "leftist" or "progressive."

I would not call any of those three people "liberals."

[–] krooklochurm@lemmy.ca 5 points 17 hours ago (5 children)

The current anger with Sanders appears to be, from an outsiders pov, that he didn't criticize Israel by calling it a genocide soon enough.

That appears to be it.

I mean. To dismiss everything because one mistake, even if that mistake is massive, and then correcting that mistake, if belatedly, to me, says something very positive about that politician.

I'd prefer it was immediate, and it's gross that it took him so long, but all the other stuff isn't cancelled out by that. He's still a net positive. And he DID criticize earlier than any other us politician I can think of, and sure it Could have been even earlier and harsher, but like. Fuck. If you hate politicians for being open to changing mind based on new evidence, or reforming beliefs you don't like, or admitting mistakes, you are AGAINST them being rational and it plays right into the hands of neoliberal propagandists.

[–] FlyingCircus@lemmy.world 3 points 1 hour ago

He has also consistently voted for Iron Dome rearmament packages, which materially supports the genocide.

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 hour ago

He didn't "change his mind based on new evidence", public opinion just shifted to the point where he couldn't get away with not calling it a genocide. The whole time he has always taken the most Israel friendly position he can get away with without losing credibility. Hell, in the very first line of his statement calling it a genocide he still insisted on repeating Isreali lies about October 7th.

[–] causepix@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago)

They specifically mentioned the liberal establishment. You're talking about criticism from people that probably abhor the liberal establishment even more than they do progressive liberals like Bernie.

Also I think this kind of criticism is important and I don't know why it bothers people so much. It's okay to be critical of things you ultimately support, either for ideological or simply for tactical reasons. It's called critical support, and I think people should do it more often. Even if the criticism isn't ultimately supportive, that doesn't mean all of a person's hate is directed in that single place. There may be more than just the surface level WHAT, like the WHY of it all and what that implies, that you are missing (or dismissing).

You have to stand for something or you'll fall for anything, and refusal to engage in critical analysis - pretending any politician can do no wrong (or the contrary case; can do no right), getting defensive, and outright rejecting any investigation to prove or disprove your conclusion - does not fall into the category of 'standing for something' to me but rather overzealous team sports.

We have to practice more critical thinking, despite how badly our political class does not want us doing that. Whether it helps any specific politician win an election or not (which you can still do even with criticisms). Especially considering that it's this kind of criticism that has made it untenable for a growing number of politicians to deny the genocide in Palestine; it's pretty clear that the only needle that uncritical support will move is that of the progressives, towards the liberal end of the spectrum. After all, it's our criticism of the current system and its complicity in human suffering that makes us progressive in the first place.

[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

I mean. To dismiss everything because one mistake, even if that mistake is massive, and then correcting that mistake, if belatedly, to me, says something very positive about that politician.

even if it's clear that he's been doubling down on that mistake when presented with the evidence and then only switched it's become clear that the tide has begun turn?

[–] krooklochurm@lemmy.ca 0 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

Better late than never?

Would you rather the kind of politician that just lies constantly?

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 hour ago

You mean like how he lied about the number of civilians killed on October 7th?

[–] magguzu@midwest.social 3 points 13 hours ago

There's more, he criticized protests against ICE in LA turning into riots, and had some nice things to say about Kirk after he was killed.

That said I think it's really unproductive for people to turn on him after he was a big spark in a movement and is still outspoken. He has irritated me a few times lately but he's still one of the most influential leaders.

[–] Don_alForno@feddit.org 2 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

These three people and neoliberals don't have anything in common. They'll stand at opposite ends of almost every political spectrum imaginable.

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 hour ago

Imagine not being able to imagine any political spectrum beyond one that has Neo-liberalism at one end and moderate Soc-dems at the other. Communists? Anarchists? Fascists? Never heard of them.