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A community about anti-natalism
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this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2023
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The general vibe around r/childfree on reddit wasn't a positive one
"Child free" just sounds like people who don't want kids. "Anti-natalism" sounds like people who don't want kids to exist at all.
That’s literally what it is. It’s people who want humanity to die out, but without suicide, war, or murder, but instead merely by not reproducing. I’ve seen their communities and it pretty much comes back to misanthropy— hating humanity.
Tbf, there is a fair amount about humanity to hate.
You're not wrong, but there's a kind of irony in it when you talk about ending humanity because of it. There's a lot to hate about humanity if you have humanity and have human values. There's nothing objectively wrong about being cruel or destructive or dishonest or greedy or abusive or murderous and I imagine most hypothetical alien species would look at those things and say "what's wrong with any of that?"
But because humans evolved as social creatures and our survival depended upon trusting one another, we're constantly trying to judge ourselves against values that can't actually be met. So we look at ourselves and say we're a really horrible species, but that statement only makes sense because ironically we're a really glorious species that's fabricated these completely irrational things like love and compassion and empathy and honesty and sacrifice that no other species has (though many other social species do have bits and pieces of them).
And we'll forever hate ourselves for not being able to live up to our own values.
A large amount of my outlook revolves around the notion that once you can forgive ANY human for existing, the justifications for holding much of anything against(or mistreating) any but a select (relatively)few just melt away and indulging in the notion that I myself am exceptionally horrible (self-loathing) is just vanity.
I honestly don't get how someone can come to the conclusion that ending humanity is absolutely desirable and not just skip to the step of ending themselves. That's surrendering the high ground at step one, and just because I believe they deserve to draw breath more than they do doesn't mean I won't block anyone who openly subscribes to such ideals in a heartbeat.
We got here by being horrible. I'll believe any other intelligent(or otherwise) life got so far without similar skeletons in their closets when I see it. Not them or anyone else claiming it, but like, a god's-eye-view of their entire history. Pretending we can't get over it is just an excuse for further horrors.
Already happened. Anti-natalism is toxic af regardless where it is, and i've already seen people doing just that here in Lemmy.
I mean, wanting humanity to die out is such a depressing thing to think. If you want that, you need therapy
Yeah, it's a death cult through and through. I get some people chose to be child free, but people relate themselves as anti-natalism ain't just about that.
I'm not exactly antinatalist, but I'm somewhat sympathetic to their position. The way I see it is this: humanity's effect on nature is on the average, harmful.
We've been very successful as a species, but at the cost of a lot of others that weren't able to cope with our success. Perhaps some species which are useful to us—sometimes just by being cute, have learned to live with us, or have learned to live despite us, have managed to thrive. But for one species that gained our protection, how many others have disappeared with no one caring?
If that's not bad enough, I don't think that the average individual human being is thriving. We've destroyed a lot only to build depressing cubicles for us to rot in.
I don't think it's worth it.
Having a child means condemning them into an ever worsening world. And I don't think I'll be able to properly equip my child to even have a smidge of a chance of being "well-off", healthy or even happy.
However, our innate instincts, as well as societal and other pressures pushes people to have children even when it's not going to end well for the children as well as their parents. Antinatalism is a counterbalance to this pressure.
If you think deathcult is a counterbalance to the world then i think you need to see a therapy for that. What is this, Attack on Titan?
I tried to give you an overview of how someone might be sympathetic to their views, but I should have known that you're not receptive to such.
And yeah, if you give me money for the expenses needed for that all-curing therapy, sure, why not? However, you might need that for yourself.
What you've described is simply a deathcult, but from your perspective lol. Just because you sympathise with them doesn't make them less of a deathcult.
Because i'm not receptive toward the deathcultist idea?
Sure, sure. Whatever you say.
Is it more depressing than humans killing everything in sight including a whole damn planet with no control over their greed?
What would you say if there was a bug that is able to live almost anywhere on earth, destroying the nearby environment and making animals go extinct, poisoning the water, sky, soil, leaving trash that's radioactive, poison filled or very hard to degrade, while killing each other for profit and doing imaginably dark and amoral things?
We kill insects for doing a lot less. Yet when it comes to us, we're free to harm everything and everyone, and when someone says "we should destroy this species, they're dangerous!" They're therapy worthy.
I think what's therapy worthy is not being aware of even a fraction of the dark shit that goes on in the world and being content because their bubble holds up just fine and that's all that matters. Its delusion of grandeur experienced by a whole species. Anyone who says otherwise is ridiculed and treated like they're ill. Isn't that convenient
I would argue that the problem you are pointing out is cultural rather than biological. Humans are very well capable of living sustainably and respectfully and have done so for extended periods of times in different regions of the world. The endless consumtion of an ending earth seems like something that developed together with (e.g. western, capitalist, ...) culture and ideology.
We need to work on changing our collective mindset rather than attempt our own disappearance. Second part of argument: I believe we can. Humans are very capable to adapt and change. Not sure about collectives, but if you think you can convice a critical number of people to stop reproducing, I think you can do the same in convincing us to please fix our shit.
TBH that rant did very little to disprove therapy might be in order
What part of what I said is wrong, exactly?
Right or wrong is beside the point. Therapy is about emotional balance and well-being. I sincerely hope you're well but these kinds of rants often come across as personal anger being projected on topic x. I don't doubt that's how you see the world around you at the moment but not everyone does and that doesn't mean they're wrong, blind or stupid. Some people can see the same atrocious state you see and counterbalance it with the good they can also see around them. Being aware of our species wrong-doings is as important as becoming sensitive to its virtues. If someone can't see any virtues at all, to the point they advocate death, they're more likely either insensitive or have been handed a very rough hand in life. Therapy can help in any of those cases.
Actually, right or wrong is the point. I'm making an argument based on facts, and your argument is based on wild assumptions about me, based on my few paragraphs, not your actual thoughts. If you had good counter points then I would change my mind, but you don't.
The problem isn't the hand I was dealt with - it's everyones. I have been lucky enough to have a not too bad, not too good existence but that never stopped me from looking at the less unfortunate to understand how they live. Do you want to talk about child prostitutes, slaves, people who have to scrape food from others trash cans to eat? Living in a coffin size "apartments" in Asian slums? People who have nowhere to eat, sleep, nowhere to call theirs? Who work with their hands in awful conditions for a life for millionaires they'd never mert? Aside from people, what about the countless dead animals, for sports, just fun etc? Had to die because their forests were taken and burned? Thousands of gallons of poison in all oceans, microplastics in our veins? What kind of virtue counter-acts this kind of destruction?
See, there are so many things that we do that require rage. I am not raging about my life, I am raging about the life we created in this world for ourselves and everything else. You may choose to bury your head in the sand and keep saying "oh, there's a virtue, my life is worth living now" when you see another rainforest burning down, or another child murdered, that means you're desensitised. You feeling good or bad about these things don't change a damn thing.
Also, to make it clear, antinatalists are not terrorists or something lol, they oppose pain. They simply choose not to reproduce. This isn't as extreme as any of you are making it to be.
Thank you. At least one person here knows what anti-natalism actually stands for. People would do good on at least reading the Wikipedia article, instead of already dooming a new community, only because on Reddit child free subreddits promoted a hostile environment. They aren't even the same thing.
I've noticed however that people get incredible sensitive on the topic of "don't have children", where all reasoning is thrown out of the window. It's one of those topics that clashes with the biology, psychology and social indoctrination of individuals. It's highly unlikely to possibly discuss this with a lot of people, who lack self reflection and awareness of their surroundings. Because if we're honest, most people live their life on auto mode anyways.
Of course unregulated subreddit or sublemmy, will unavoidably drift into the extrem. All of them have this tendency, that's why moderators and rules are important. One might argue that it's a natural cause of unregulated topics and discussions, as humans themselves are socially diverse and at the same time very controversial beings, whom prefer to form groups/tribes and ultimately end with a self amplifying echo chamber if not constantly reminded and course corrected.
Back to anti-natalism, people at least should understand the decision table of life vs no life, possible suffering vs no suffering. It's simple logic in my eyes. Not even talking about the current future were heading, which in itself exposes the selfish act of reproduction.
And lastly, it's sad to see people question your sanity for correcting and explaining a maliciously twisted topic. Seriousness of educated people often gets mistaken as mental issue by the lesser. I'm not even that smart and often want to scream at the screen. Best to practice some stoicism, my friend.
Thank you, my man. It's weird how many people have negative thoughts about this without knowing anything about it. I'm not even an antinatalist lol, though I'm very close to it, I am childfree - those communities only represented the most extreme, most hostile persons and I've never participated. But that doesn't matter to the humanistic, holistic, full of virtue person. Talk about self awareness and irony.
It's okay, I've been online enough to observe that when s certain kind of person feel that they can't "win" the argument by discussion, they tend to take it to to the personal level and enrage you by insults. For me there's no winner, just ideas being discussed so I'm not offended. So boring to have such a fragile mindset that can be broken so easily by mere thoughs it has to be defended. Now what's depressing is knowing that these people hold the majority. Still, thanks for your concern.
Childfree lifestyle is becoming the norm fast, btw - even in my little family oriented country, childfree services such as hotels have increased rapidly, and childfree people aren't that frowned upon anymore. People can downvote and insult me here all they want but things are changing because they have to. Soon there will be more, and it will be a normal thing to have a neighbor childfree old couple. Then we will be able to talk about it without getting pitchforked to hell and back.
I suppose that the vitriol surrounding this topic is tied to the innate biological pressures towards procreation. Life is supposed to the ultimate good. People like us who have doubted this assertion are not only fighting against long-held societal norms, but also biological instincts. It also doesn't help that having a child (or not) is one of the most impactful personal decisions one can ever make. Having a child not only affects your life, your partner, but most especially, the child themself! It's something that will permanently change one's life, and those around them for better or for worse.
I'm not even against people who choose to have children (the so-called “breeders” in antinatalist communities). If their lives are enriched by having children and forming a family, more power to them! Even more so if they can provide the child with what they would need to thrive, or at least survive in this world.
Perhaps this trend of growing sentiment towards childfree lifestyles is yet one of those bio-sociological mechanisms driving us to having more quality children instead of just having more children. Children that would be able to live better, more fulfilling lives than I can ever hope for, and can thrive in the shitty world we've left for them.
Cool. I'm not making an argument nor countering whatever it is you believe, please don't mistake my engagement, have zero interest in 'discussing' with you. I was merely answering your question about my previous comment. Live as you see fit.
Oh, sorry, did any of your pearls fall? Thanks for your precious "engagement". I surely won't mistake it with any meaningful encounter. Just another one with someone who lacks knowledge but has opinions on the matter for some reason, and cannot be bothered to think for a second to make an argument that isn't empty virtue signaling.
I guess it's scary for some people to participate in even a conversation about something new with an open mind without being condescending. All while defending "virtue", ironically.
Have a nice day!
Irony, thy name is ... well, just check the user name. It's all you need.
That's because humans should look out for other humans and value our own species the most. That's our obligation.
That community had it's place. Sadly the one on reddit became toxic over time. Perhaps on Lemmy these topics can be discussed by adults without it turning into a dumpster fire.