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Donald Trump says he never swore oath "to support the Constitution"
(www.newsweek.com)
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this post was submitted on 28 Nov 2023
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https://youtu.be/ohgTEk9h1kc?si=RP3DiYmUxUooBnPH
It took me seconds to find video proving this is a lie.
They are arguing that the oath doesn't include the word "support" not that he didn't take the oath. Not saying it's a good argument but that's what they are actually arguing.
Emphasis mine.
I feel like if that's your argument, you absolutely have no business being president.
He didn't and doesn't.
I wonder what their definition of "support" is and how they plan on using that as a defense.
Or what their definition of “defend” is, and how they plan to use that as support.
Well. I mean he didn't literally carry the constitution around. So he wasn't supporting it that way.
The Constitution wasn't a foetus. Republican support ends at birth.
Looks like the founding fathers fucked up, and the writers of the 14th amendment didn't catch it.
The oaths of office for the Senate, House of Representatives, Supreme Court, and all civil and military offices except the presidency include the requirement to "support" the constitution. Even the vice presidency requires it, but the presidency does not.
I don't think this distinction is particularly relevant. I don't think the "previously swore an oath" requirement is particularly relevant. The "insurrection" part should disqualify him, and the Colorado judge ruled that he did, in fact, commit insurrection.
I am curious whether he ever made a campaign speech or other public statement about the constitution, and used the word "support".
"I am curious whether he ever made a campaign speech or other public statement about the constitution, and used the word “support”."
Knowing him it was probably more like "I love our Beautiful Constitution™ really, very good stuff, Great Constitution. I would touch that Constitution, you know they let you when you're famous, that Constitution is the best they say, the best Constitution in the world (I don't support it) the Democrats though, they want to take Our Beautiful Constitution™ and make it Communism! Venezuela and eating rats! It's what Disgusting Democrats love to do. Anyway, such a Beautiful Constitution, really the best, maybe the best of all time they say. Never supported it though."
I just thought of something. Every officer of the US except the president is obligated to take an oath to support the constitution. 5 USC §3331
Read the 14th amendment again:
Trump was found to be an insurrectionist.
Every member of the electoral college is obligated to take an oath to support the constitution. Any of them providing "aid and comfort" to insurrectionist Trump is barred from serving as an elector. They can't cast a vote for Trump, because doing so would be giving him "aid or comfort".
So even if Trump can't be barred from service, all of his electors can be. With no members of the electoral college able to vote for him, he can't be elected.
By the same argument, if he is elected, any state or federal civil or military officer who follows his orders would be giving "aid or comfort", immediately disqualifying themself from their position.
Just you wait and see. Bet everything I know on it. Come November every trumpet will be tooting, "it was just a little insurrection."
The judge also found that the "Office of President of the United States" was not an office of the United States... so yeah...
"Elector of the President or Vice President" is an office. Even if this ruling means that Trump himself can't be disqualified from running, his electors (as in: the electoral college) can be disqualified for providing "aid or comfort" to an insurrectionist by voting for him.
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Yeah it's pretty wild. Someone else linked the full ruling below, but the relevant parts are:
Edit: Starting on page 95 of this doc if you want to read it yourself: https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/02nd_Judicial_District/Denver_District_Court/11_17_2023%20Final%20Order.pdf
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I despise Trump and think he absolutely should be disqualified from holding office (including the presidency) - AT A MINIMUM. I'm also far more a "spirit of the law" advocate than "letter of the law". With that said, the findings of the judge are perfectly reasonable in full context. The letter of the law clearly omits in its enumerations the office of the presidency. For this to have been merely a mistake would be so monumental an oversight as to make it highly unlikely. If there had been no listing of included offices, then the catch-all portion of that language would perhaps inarguably include the presidency (because of course it SHOULD be included). Thus, this omission also strikes at the spirit of the law. What the judge is saying is that the fact this list is included, yet fails to include so obvious an office one would imagine should be included (the presidency), indicates - absent compelling evidence to the contrary - that the Founders intended it to be omitted. In other words, absent said evidence, neither the letter of the law nor the spirit of the law suggest the presidency was meant to be included.
This is a circumstance in which I would argue the judge ain't wrong and if we're not happy with that, then the law needs to be changed.
I see your point, but can't help thinking this from a layman's perspective. If I were going out of town for the weekend and left a note for my kids that said "While I'm away, no keggers, ragers or any other types of parties at the house." Then I come back to find out they held a massive rave that destroyed my house, and they say "obviously a rave wasn't included when you said any other types of parties. A rave is bigger than a kegger or a rager." I would be more than a bit upset.
It's the Air Bud loophole for fascists.
I would much rather have a golden retriever as my president
TIL that in basketball it's legal to head the ball like in soccer
I think it's only a foul if feet touch the ball
Ahh semantics. "Lawyers hate this one trick"
Their argument is that because he did not use the exact word "support" in respect to the Constitution, that he is not able to be excluded from holding office in the US even if he did commit seditious acts. He is saying that his oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution" is entirely different than an oath to "support" it. It's nonsense, but one judge (in Colorado, I believe?) ~~has already provided legitimacy to that argument, so... the stupid argument now has judicial precedent.~~
Edit: Correcting my mistake about the Judge's verdict. The judge did not uphold the argument that the Presidential oath was not to "support" the Constitution. Instead, the Judge was convinced by Trump's team that the President is not an "officer of the United States". Therefore, Trump took no oath as an Officer of the United States, and, thus, Section 3 of the 14th Amendment (which exclude someone who swore such an oath, who then incites an insurrection from holding federal or state office) simply doesn't apply to someone who has only sworn an oath as President.
That judge is insane. The word "officer" literally means "one who holds office". This has always been the dictionary definition of the word. What the fuck is that judge smoking?!
He's smoking his fat bribes from the rich cunts that run the country.
You can read her judgement here: https://www.courts.state.co.us/userfiles/file/Court_Probation/02nd_Judicial_District/Denver_District_Court/11_17_2023%20Final%20Order.pdf
The most convincing part is the other places in the constitution which set up the presidency in opposition to Officers of the United States. However, it's far from clear cut, as people definitely did think of and refer to the president as being an Officer of the United States.
Both can't be true. A president can't be an officer and not an officer. What can be true is an officer that is opposition to other officers. This is what Ben Shapiro would call 'logic.'
I'm afraid that's not the right kind of logic. Laws don't always use words with the exact same meaning throughout, especially when considering a body of law rather than a single document. And here we're not even talking about an inconsistency within the constitution, but consistency between a clause in it and the usage of people in other contexts. Suppose you have a document which says:
Clearly that does not mean the Field Marshal can appoint a new Field Marshal, so in that document we may think "officers" doesn't include Field Marshal. On the other hand in general usage, Field Marshal clearly is an officer. Let's say later on in the document there's a clause which says:
Do we think that "other officers" should include the Field Marshal, here? Sure, we know that in general usage, he is an officer. But also, why did whoever wrote this start with General and then work their way down? Wouldn't they have included the Field Marshal, the most important guy, if they meant for him to be included? Is it not more likely that "other officers" only includes the lower ranks? Besides, in this document we have evidence that "officer" is not always used to include Field Marshal, because he can't appoint a new Field Marshal.
Now in the actual case it's not exactly the same: there are only three things listed besides "officer of the United States" so the argument from the ordering is not as strong. But the argument that officer in general usage included the presidency is also less strong - military ranks are much better defined.
I'm not trying to convince you the argument is right, but to allow you to see the logic of it.
The fuck Simon Says argument is this? Are we in kindergarten?
I'm no lawyer, but I swear 99% of law is laughable semantics like this.
America does produce 4x the lawyers expected per capita, and they've gotta do something to get paid, so ... yeah.
Frankly, there's a lot of it that's creative reading of something so you don't have to spend 6 months fighting an even worse battle. Also, turns out six people can look at the exact same sentence and come away with six different interpretations, so there's a good deal of legitimate disagreement on meaning.
The judge said that the goverment didn't have the power to keep him off a primary ballot, since that's not an election to an office. The actual election is up in the air
That's not quite correct. The judge specifically concluded that the Section 3 clause of the 14th Amendment that would exclude someone from holding office after inciting an insurrection simply did not matter for the presidency. They were somehow convinced that the President is not an "officer of the United States", so Section 3 did not apply. I genuinely don't understand how they were convinced of that. But they basically concluded that a sitting or former Congressman, Judge or soldier who commits insurrection can never hold office again without Congressional pardon, but someone who has only held the office of President like Trump can commit insurrection and not face similar consequences. Like that makes any sense.
It may not matter for the presidency, but it absolutely matters for the Electoral College. Read the 14th amendment again: even if it doesn't apply to the president himself, it explicitly applies to the electors of the president.
Trump was declared an insurrectionist. If an electoral vote for Trump can be considered giving him "aid or comfort", any elector intending to vote for him is unqualified to serve as an elector.
You're missing up the cases, the one in Minnesota is the one where they kept him on the Primary ballot, for the reason you cited
Technically, we don't elect the president. We elect the electors who elect the president. Those electors are required to swear an oath, under 5 USC §3331.
Any elector who intends to vote for Trump is giving "aid or comfort" to a known insurrectionist, which disqualifies them from serving as an elector. They can only be an elector until they try to cast a vote for insurrectionist Trump.
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