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Hamas says no hostage will leave alive unless group's demands met
(www.telegraph.co.uk)
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this post was submitted on 10 Dec 2023
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They want a ceasefire, the blockade to be loosened and the release of all Palestinian prisoners in Israel. All things that shouldn't need even need negotiation to happen in a non-Apartheid state.
Is there an actual published list of demands somewhere that is cite-able?
So it doesn't say much but I found this,
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/11/analysis-why-did-hamas-attack-now-and-what-is-next
Unfortunately you're right, it doesn't say a whole lot.
and later
Which contradicts the idea in the OP article stating about Hamas' "demands."
The closet thing I could find was this:
Which are certainly objectives, but not specific enough to be demands.
Searching for "hamas' list of demands" online, there are several articles similar to the one above that reference it, but no list of demands that I can see. The closest things I can find are the 1988 and 2017 Hamas charters, which aren't particularly specific other than the original one calls for the eradication of Israel and the Jews, and the revised one just calls for the eradication of Israel... which isn't exactly a demand as much as an aspiration, and is kind of a moot point because it doesn't seem like something that would be accepted by Israel.
So I'm still looking for an actual list of demands...
Thank you for properly seeking sources for information instead of just blindly believing what someone on a forum tells you.
Ironically I'm still getting shit upon by one or two freakish trolls for simply asking questions and engaging in dialog.
It's kind of annoying that the block feature doesn't work right, since I still get notifications whenever people I've blocked comment.
Not really? "Release Palestinian prisoners" and "stop Israeli violations" at least are definitely demands, and from what I found they also want Israel to stop flying drones over Gaza. That said, yeah, I guess not much has been made public.
Well for an actual "list of demands" I would expect things like "release these people:" followed by a list of names, and "stop doing these violations:" followed by a list of the violations they are accusing Israel of. "Release everybody" and "stop doing bad things" are technically demands, but they're not the kind of things you'd expect in an actual list of specific demands. Those certainly work as summaries of the demands, but I was hoping that some news agency would have an actual list of the specific things Hamas is demanding in order to release the hostages rather than just "do everything we want." I've seen them mention the drones in another article, which I suspect must be one of the things on the actual list.
"Release everyone" is one of their actual demands. Usually Hamas milks hostages for as many Palestinian prisoners as they're worth, and this time they have a lot of hostages so it should be in line with historical "exchange rates", so to speak, given that many of the hostages are soldiers, which have more value as hostages. Good point on the violations thing, though, it's frankly perplexing that they nobody is publishing an actual list.
If something as vague as "release everyone" or "release all Palestinians in Israeli jails" or whatever is one of their actual demands, it's unfortunate, because it makes it sound more like they're not serious and are just making impossible demands that they know will not/can not be met as an excuse to continue fighting but to give off the appearance of working for peace. Just as if "the eradication of the Israeli state" were one of their demands. But I can't really accuse them of that yet since I haven't seen an actual list of demands and we're both just speculating at this stage.
Why not? I think they got Israel to release 1200 Palestinian prisoners for one soldier before. That's why I said there's historical precedent. Releasing all Palestinian prisoners is far from an impossible demand.
It's the vagueness that's the problem. Without lists of who is to be released, it just becomes Israel's word of who is there or not. It could be 100 people or 10,000 people. I suspect Hamas is far more aware of who is imprisoned and how much they are worth. Like, is Hamas demanding the release of random violent criminals, rapists, car thieves, etc. solely because of their ethnicity? I doubt it. But they'll want their fighters back, and any political prisoners, stuff like that.
Yeah makes sense.
And one of those released went on to mastermind the Oct 7 atrocities.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/who-is-hamas-leader-yehiya-sinwar-from-enforcer-to-oct-7-mastermind/ar-AA1lkHOa
Which Hamas broke on Oct 7, despite loosening restrictions on Gaza, then again on Nov 30.
Which Egypt and Israel instated with international support because Hamas even turns humanitarian aid into weapons.
Palestinian Israelis serve in every level of government and civic life.
There are 2M Palestinians living within the borders that Israel claims as it's own. There are 8M Israelis (that figure includes Palestinian Israelis). Palestinians would need to hold roughly 1/5 of all gov't positions in order for them to be anything other than a token minority. But they don't. In fact, it's not even close. The US, despite it's 200+ year racist and patriarchal history, has better representation of non-white and non-male people in Congress--as a proportion of the population--than Israel does.
What territories are you describing when you say "within the borders that Israel claims as it's own."
The West Bank, which is occupied territory. E.g., it's not part of Israel under international law, but Israel claims it as its own.
Ty for clarifying, West Bank settlements are absolutely abhorrent, but I've seen too many people use the phrase claimed territory to refer to all of Israel. I appreciate the response and clarification
IMO, the 1947 UN borders are fairly reasonable, and Jerusalem should probably be administered by rotating 3rd parties (since there's no way that Israel and Palestine can realistically jointly govern Jerusalem due to how religiously charged it is).
In the USA, there are 3 African-American senators out of 100. There have been only 3 African American governors in history.
There are 9 ethnic minority members of French parliament out of 577, despite making up about 15% of the population.
Ethnic minorities represent 10% of the UK Parliament, despite being 16% of the population.
In Israel, there are 10 seats in the Knesset representing Arab/Palestinian parties out of 120.
Underrepresentation of minorities is a widespread global problem that is not limited to Israel. Pretending that the the rest of the world is some kind of post-racial utopia, while only Israel experiences racial inequality is cynical at best.
Look at state legislators, mayors, etc. Yeah, the US is gerrymandered to shit, and SCOTUS is gutting the civil rights and voting rights acts. But at least at a state level, non-white people have better representation. In my state, Republicans are currently fighting a federal court order to redraw voting districts because they under-represented black populations, but that city has a black mayor, and a majority black city council. Yeah, the US has a problem with racism. But the US doesn't send in the military to run Atlanta because they don't want black and Latino people to have a say in the government.
Israel broke the ceasefire by invading Al Aqsa before Oct 7 it was the direct reason for the attack.
Also israel refused to extend the ceasefire agreement and were probably the first party that threw bombs on 30 nov.
Lay off the IDF propaganda for a bit.
So, a third ceasefire now, with them starting new attacks within 30 minutes or less? Or are we past third yet?
It's like the 17th ceasefire with Hamas. They just use them to rebuild their rocket supplies, then break them when they're ready.
I mean Israel doesn't follow its ceasefires. What do they expect will happen? Despite two agreements stipulating that the blockade would be lifted and air strikes would stop neither happened.
Internet libs love to tell people how they should fight for their rights. I wonder if anyone has considered holding a bake sale in Gaza? Maybe then both sides can sit down and talk? Maybe Israel just doesn't know committing genocide is bad? Does Hamas know Israel wants to commit genocide? Does Israel know Palestinians feel pain and suffering?
It's impossible to know without DiALoGuE.
Jubilee did a Middle Ground on Israel/Palestine. It went how you’d expect.
I think you're confusing Hamas firing rockets for Israeli ones. Or maybe you're intentionally miss stating those.
Many of those prisoners are there after participating in terrorist activities, many of them murdering lots of innocent civilians. The only reason they're still there is because Israel does not have the death penalty.
And about 1100 are there without charge.
They need to release hostages for a ceasefire. You know, those they just said they will kill. Try to keep up.
Release the hostages and then what? Lose all their leverage? I can bet you right now if they release the hostages outside of an actual ceasefire agreements none of their demands will be met.
No keep raping and drugging them. That will get them closer to the goal.
That's... Not happening to my knowledge. Where did you get that from?
Are you serious? After so many news talking about drugged up kids which were released in hostage exchange and naked woman being dragged through the city and spat on you actually question whether hostages are abused?
Oh in that case we're talking about different things. There are hostages who were abused the moment they were taken. The people who abused those need to be punished, no questions asked. There are then hostages that weren't. Those weren't abused after being taken into the tunnels, or at least weren't sexually assaulted. The former is a fact, the latter is a claim even the IDF walked back on.
After they release all the hostages they're going to nurder? You mean what happens then? IDK, what do you thibk?
I think Israel will take over Gaza like it used to before 2005 (they've actually stated this), and Palestinians prisoners will continue rotting in the Israeli military prison system. I also think Palestinian resistance will be mercilessly crushed. Why do you ask?
Check out the geopolitical whiz kid!
They're doing far better than you are.
Hamas? They are getting their ass ki kicked.