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this post was submitted on 20 Dec 2023
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Yeah, but people also thought Ukraine could take back Crimea and see how that's going.
Their rhetoric was the same, too. Ukraine just needs these weapons and they'll be able to accomplish this goal.
I'm waiting for everyone who was gungho about that to come out and admit they were wrong.
It's been awhile, but I see no shortage of posters like you telling me Ukraine just needs more weapons and they're be able to accomplish a different goal.
We have visual confirmation Ukraine has destroyed over 13,500 Russian vehicles, including 2,500 Russian tanks. They are doing a damn good job and next goal needs weapons. An army doesn't run on wishes alone.
Wars invariably take longer than expected. There’s a reason “home by Christmas” is a meme. That doesn’t change the fact that Ukraine has liberated huge swathes of their territory since the beginning of the invasion. I’m all for more weapons for them; giving up aid just sends all the despots of the world the message that all they need to do in order to take whatever they want is out wait the fickle west.
Gee, how come I never see this in response to "3 days"?
Oh right, propaganda.
Because people like to mock the obvious Russian hubris? They’re getting worked by a country with hand me down weapons from 40 years ago, of course people laugh at “Kyiv in 3 days”.
So... russians are woefully incompetent and should be made fun of for that.
When Ukrainians are losing against russians... "wars take longer than expected."
This war should really teach rational people how powerful modern propaganda is, and how ignorant its perpetrators are of its existence.
You’re trying to make an equivalence between the poorest European nation and the previously believed second most powerful army in the world. That’s not a rational stance. If anyone was told on February 25th 2022 that in two years time Ukraine would hold all territory on the right bank of the Dnipro and still contest territory in Luhansk and Donetsk it would rightfully be considered a miracle. Shit, Russia has moved a huge portion of their Black Sea fleet to Novorossiysk to avoid Ukrainian attacks against an opponent with no Navy. They can’t even use the port they stole. Do you not recognize the power imbalance is a factor? I’m not even sure what your point is other than acting like you’re smarter than the rest of the room.
Why do you guys keep calling Ukraine the poorest nation in Europe? They must be burning enough money to compare with a top 10 military expenditure. It's gone impressively well for them, but the way they are glorified like this is blatant propaganda. It's another front in the fight, but with the dishonesty, it makes it hard to judge the nobility of the cause.
Because they are according to GNI per capita? Never heard of international aid?
It's dishonest to frame this war that way. Ukraine is some kind of proxy for a global alliance against Russia. We are good at lying to ourselves. Not as good as Russia, but the more we do it, the less certain we can be of anything.
Maybe you propaganda lovers need the lies for some internal reason? I don't personally feel that if I'm justifying my decisions with lies, I should resolve the inconsistency in my value system.
Here you go goalpost moving. First it’s not true now it’s misleading? It’s not dishonest, their support is faltering and it’s obvious they can’t succeed it on their own. Stop acting like anyone you disagree with is just a victim of propaganda, it’s obnoxious at best and bad faith at worst.
I might add that “Ukraine is a puppet of the west” is a Russian propaganda talking point; physician heal thyself.
Your reasoning is very flawed on this. Dishonest and misleading are synonymous. And I never said they are a puppet of anyone. They are very far from alone and they obviously have the greatest interest. Their military assets amount to many billions with more constantly flowing in. When it comes to the means to make war, Ukraine is wealthy and applying any other measure is dishonest, a lie, misleading and propaganda.
Ukraine is worth our help but not worth lying to ourselves over.
Ukraine’s wealth is absolutely relevant to contextualizing this conflict. They have billions in arms because they were given to them by other wealthier nations. They don’t have the same domestic defense industrial base that Russia has even with Russia crippled by sanctions, nor do they have a steady stream of oil money. Without western aid continuing it’s doubtful that they will continue to have much success. I don’t have food security if I to get a meal at a soup kitchen every night, what happens if they close up shop? Same applies to Ukraine and the arms they need to fight.
I mean, just look at the list of countries by GDP/capita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
Sort by rank, scroll all the way down. There it is.
Thanks for proving my point.
“Some people on Reddit, a site I’m not even on right now, were wildly overoptimistic and thus all aid to Ukraine was a waste.”
This is what you sound like.
Ok.
Cowards are using gas
Imagine not using everything at your disposal because random folks on the internet will call you 'cowards.'
Imagine being such a pussy that you use weapons that even Adolf Hitler wouldn’t use.
Straight up трус
Classic case of a vatnik being incapable to see the bigger picture. Your propaganda narrative went from "Ukraine has no chance of winning since they'll be overthrown in two weeks tops" to "Ukraine has no chance of winning since they failed to retake Crimea".
I'm pro-Ukrainian, but "huge swathes" of regained territory is absurdly inflating UA's achievements. They're fighting off the imperialist invaders, but only just and only for now.
Edit: typo
Do you not remember how much land Russia stole at first?
Russian forces tried to blitz across the country in 2022 - I remember that failure, but all recent developments in this invasion are minimal. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60506682 - this is a pretty decent overview I think we could both agree on.
Granted, recently they have been going more slowly, I would too without true combined arms warfare and with shackles on my combat ability.
Maybe we should take off their chains and allow them to fight for real, if shit started happening in Russia proper, people would start losing their shit there.
Let them take the battle to the homes of the oppressors.