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this post was submitted on 03 Jan 2024
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While Tax the Rich is fair and accurate, I wish we could point out that this isn't some undue burden. This is just reclaiming the surplus wealth they've extracted from the economy.
We can and should do far more, but this is a good start.
Libertarians think taxation is theft. Be sure to tell them every time they use a road, a hospital, a sporting ground, drink clean water they are stealing from the government and any one who paid more tax than them
Also every time they use anything that involves radio transmission, eat food that is safe, breathe air that is clean, flush their poop into the sewer system, or work in a safe environment.
I was gonna link to The New Yorker's Libertarian Police Department story again, but fuck it. I'm pasting the whole thing here.
-------------------------
I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.
“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.”
“What? Is the mayor trying to ban trans fats again?”
“Worse. Somebody just stole four hundred and forty-seven million dollars’ worth of bitcoins.”
The heroin needle practically fell out of my arm. “What kind of monster would do something like that? Bitcoins are the ultimate currency: virtual, anonymous, stateless. They represent true economic freedom, not subject to arbitrary manipulation by any government. Do we have any leads?”
“Not yet. But mark my words: we’re going to figure out who did this and we’re going to take them down … provided someone pays us a fair market rate to do so.”
“Easy, chief,” I said. “Any rate the market offers is, by definition, fair.”
He laughed. “That’s why you’re the best I got, Lisowski. Now you get out there and find those bitcoins.”
“Don’t worry,” I said. “I’m on it.”
I put a quarter in the siren. Ten minutes later, I was on the scene. It was a normal office building, strangled on all sides by public sidewalks. I hopped over them and went inside.
“Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t.
“Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.
“Come on,” I said. “Don’t you all understand that the protection of private property is the foundation of all personal liberty?”
It didn’t seem like they did.
“Seriously, guys. Without a strong economic motivator, I’m just going to stand here and not solve this case. Cash is fine, but I prefer being paid in gold bullion or autographed Penn Jillette posters.”
Nothing. These people were stonewalling me. It almost seemed like they didn’t care that a fortune in computer money invented to buy drugs was missing.
I figured I could wait them out. I lit several cigarettes indoors. A pregnant lady coughed, and I told her that secondhand smoke is a myth. Just then, a man in glasses made a break for it.
“Subway™ Eat Fresh and Freeze, Scumbag!®” I yelled.
Too late. He was already out the front door. I went after him.
“Stop right there!” I yelled as I ran. He was faster than me because I always try to avoid stepping on public sidewalks. Our country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.
I was losing him. “Listen, I’ll pay you to stop!” I yelled. “What would you consider an appropriate price point for stopping? I’ll offer you a thirteenth of an ounce of gold and a gently worn ‘Bob Barr ‘08’ extra-large long-sleeved men’s T-shirt!”
He turned. In his hand was a revolver that the Constitution said he had every right to own. He fired at me and missed. I pulled my own gun, put a quarter in it, and fired back. The bullet lodged in a U.S.P.S. mailbox less than a foot from his head. I shot the mailbox again, on purpose.
“All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”
“Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.
“Because I was afraid.”
“Afraid?”
“Afraid of an economic future free from the pernicious meddling of central bankers,” he said. “I’m a central banker.”
I wanted to coldcock the guy. Years ago, a central banker killed my partner. Instead, I shook my head.
“Let this be a message to all your central-banker friends out on the street,” I said. “No matter how many bitcoins you steal, you’ll never take away the dream of an open society based on the principles of personal and economic freedom.”
He nodded, because he knew I was right. Then he swiped his credit card to pay me for arresting him.
True libertarians believe the country needs a private-sidewalk voucher system, but, thanks to the incestuous interplay between our corrupt federal government and the public-sidewalk lobby, it will never happen.
That's a joke, but I have talked to libertarians who think that if the road is full of potholes, neighbors should come together and pay for the road to be repaved.
Yeah, we should actually all pool our money together for the repairs and maintenance. I wonder what we could call such a thing? Hmm 🤔
A community, coming together communally, to pay for something the community uses, as a community? Hmmm, it's right on the tip of my tongue...
Communism!
Libertarians try not to recreate society challenge: impossible
Honestly, libertarians are free to do that now. Where I live there are loads of both potholes and libertarians. What’s stopping them from practicing what they preach and fixing the problem themselves? They’d get more street cred (literally) that way. Be the change.
But no. The real answer is it’s always someone else’s problem, and that’s why government exists.
I tend to somewhat agree: if someone believes that infrastructure should be privatized, I think their neighbors should come together and use that person to build a new speed bump on the road.
I grew up in a college town where repaving did actually work like that: streets didn't get repaired at all unless a majority of the homeowners voted to approve a surtax to pay for it. In areas that were mostly college student rentals, the scumlord "homeowners" always voted against the surtax and the streets were nearly un-drivable, more like uneven dirt roads with big chunks of broken asphalt embedded in them.
I remember arguing with some guy on Reddit who thought the entire judicial system should be private and people would just go along with it because their reputation would be hurt if they didn't accept whatever punishment the private judges said they should get.
But... But... Chicoms! And social credits! And... And...
As long as the social credit score is from a private company it's cool. That's why we all love Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion
Abritrationists
And if that doesn’t dissuade them, point out that libertarians are a delicacy to bears.
Rob libertarians, got it.
They have no money. Spent it all on prepping supplies, child support, alimony, and court fees.
Focus on the right wing libertarians, the leftist ones are somewhere between minarchists and anarchists depending on which one you talk to. They are also usually pretty chill, plus they like guns and are marginally more intelligent on what should be done with said guns.
Taxation IS theft. So what? We permit the government to steal from those fucknuts for the services they use. If they don't like it, they can hire a bigger army than us.
It definitely isn't theft. It's the cost of living in the society that you want to live in. No one is forcing you to live in an area that has a tax price attached. You're free to move to a place with no taxes, but you don't want to live in those places. Being forced to pay with no other options is theft, choosing to live in an area with taxes providing services you want is not.
when was the last time you paid your taxes?... or were they auto-deducted from your paycheck before you even had a chance to count it?
"you're free to move to a place...." hahaha! haaahahaha! WHAT? you are not a serious person.
Please name a modern nation that has operated effectively without taxation.
Or an ancient one, for that matter
For all I know, there was some fuckoff group of cities in some fuckoff part of the world that somehow figured out how to live tax-free in 5000 BC before their civilization collapsed suddenly, so I didn't want to push my luck.
Or a medium aged one.
Have you not seen a paystub? It would not surprise me if you haven't, but they clearly show what taxes are being deducted. We're already in a corporat hell hole. You really want ticket master in charge of roadways? There goes your right to traveling freely.
Yeah taxes suck, but take off your rose tinted glasses and truly look at what that free market would become. Think about how selfish you'd want to be in making your money and multiply that by, well everyone in the US. Whole lot of middle men that need to make money. I'd rather keep the personal profit out of it.
Last July. My property taxes are crazy high, because I live in an area with good schools and nice parks and amenities (eta such as a boat launch, public rock climbing along cliffs, a nice library, and near monthly open-air festivals in summer).
I no longer have a child in school and I haven’t used the parks in years, but guess what? I’m happy to contribute so other kids and my community can use those services because I’m not a narcissistic asshole.
It’s literally not. It’s the dues you pay to live in a society that then gives you the services you need to live.
You’re not obligated to pay taxes any more than you’re obligated to live in a society. You’re perfectly free to go live off the grid somewhere, free of those restrictions and also free from roads, fire services, clean water, sewage, cell service, hospitals, schools, and the rest. You’re free to enjoy your libertarian utopia until the bears decide otherwise.
That's not actually true. As a practical matter you can easily dodge your obligation by getting a job under the table that pays on cash, but the legal obligation remains. If you go without income and property entirely you'll have the same problems any homeless person does.
Also false. You can't just legally flee the country, and there's nowhere inside the country you can do things like own a home without paying taxes on it.
I'm not defending the tax-free attitude of liberterians here, but I am most certainly emphasizing that your claims are false.
That’s why I mentioned boat, not home, ownership. Buy one outright, work for cash and pay cash. Sure, you’ll be living on the fringes of society, but if you’re truly libertarian, that shouldn’t matter – in fact, it’s a bonus.
There is no unclaimed territory where you could honestly claim to not need to pay taxes. Yes you could go off grid and hide, but you are still going to owe those taxes and it will be taken when they find you.
But who cares if they call it theft? I just agree. Fine it's theft. The government is allowed to steal from you because society approves of it.
Sure there is. Perhaps not in the US, but if you’re dedicated to your convictions, the world is your oyster, and why would you want to stay in the US anyhow? In fact, you can buy a small boat and just move along coastlines, essentially invisible to everyone not charging you slip fees. (e: and you can often pay those with cash, no paper trail.)
Regardless, it’s still not theft if you use the services provided.
I think I'm confused. I was under the impression that the US government required taxes on any money earned anywhere on the planet. I'm pretty sure you required to pay taxes on whatever money you earn working part-time from your boat or whatever. Is that not the case?
You can work for cash and pay cash. If you really think taxation is theft, why would you work for someone who’s a slave to The Man and insisting on payroll taxes?
There are plenty of libertarian employers who also think taxation is theft and would rather not report your earnings. Hell, there are plenty of employers in the US who don’t report earnings because they mostly use undocumented workers.
e: it’s called ‘under the table’
I think you miss my point. I don't think it's theft. I grant libertarians that point then say "so what". There's never an answer.
Oh, in that case, yeah. I’d also love to know that. Sorry, I was having two conversations in this thread and may have mixed up the overall point.
If you ever get an answer, please let me know.
It's beyond me why Americans, who scream about government taxation, can't see how large corporations essentially have added a hidden, ever increasing line item tax to their paychecks to extract wealth.
And then we fawn over billionaires donating their money to causes we perceive as beneficial to society - they're just returning stolen money without interest or penalty, which could have been better used when money was actually earned.
It is largely because they see these price increases as consequences of some hidden government hand, while price cuts are attributed to a competitive marketplace. In short, its propaganda.
We train people, from an early age, to believe that competition brings prices down and regulation forces prices up. We don't learn about the profit motive as an upward price impulse or spend significant amounts of time on monopolies and their impact on marginal pricing. We absolutely 100% do not ever discuss the difference between Exchange Value and Utility Value when discussing economic productivity. The impact of speculative investments on retail prices is straight out never mentioned ever.
So all anyone has left to go on is "gas prices are up because the government did a war" and "computer prices are up because the government did a tariff" and "food prices are up because the government did a tax".
Philanthropy is when a single incredibly rich guy gives money away for free.
Public Spending is when a soulless bureaucracy steals Peter to pay Paul.
Therefore, public sector bad and private sector good.
Yeah. This is a good first step. But it needs to go further. A lot of the wealth is not in direct income. We should be including in this capital gains, and perhaps imposing a similar tax on people with assets totally $10M+ or so. A lot of valuation comes at people holding huge assets and stocks, increasing in value and they take loans out on those assets to actually buy anything.
You feel no burden when compound interest carries you on angel's wings
Even removing the terms "surplus wealth" and "extracted" - which I don't necessarily disagree with in all instances but which isn't going to win anyone over - this still is not some undue burden.
I'd like to see this tackled as a simple conversation between discretionary and non-discretionary spending. A poor person struggles with even sales tax increases because they have little discretionary income. A rich person has vastly more discretionary income and thus is the least burdened by new taxation of any sort.
Gets around all the "fair tax"/"flat tax" arguments right from the jump.
That's a great point and I'll remember it for the future.