200
UN experts alarmed by Alabama plan to kill prisoner using untried gas method
(www.theguardian.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 04 Jan 2024
200 points (92.7% liked)
News
23287 readers
3826 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
I saw a documentary about a guy trying to find a "humane" execution method, he came to the conclusion that suffocation with nitrogen gas probably was the least bad.
It doesn't trigger a feeling of panic as CO2 poisoning does, you simply drift away in a hypoxic high filled with mild confusion without the dread.
People on both sides of the death penalty issue thought is was barbaric, proponents of the death penalty thought it was wrong to remove the suffering from the person, they felt it would be wrong to let say a serial killer just drift away in a high, while opponents of the death penalty felt it was barbaric as it would lessen the felt impact of taking a life and might cause governments to reinstate the death penalty.
It was an interesting documentary...
That was one of Louis Theroux's phenomenal docos.
He was super confused at the end when he was met with "but we want to hurt them" it was a bit funny how jarring it was, but also really sad.
I think I found the one I saw, it was this BBC Horizon documentary:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/broadband/tx/executions/
https://imdb.com/title/tt1228865/
I am sure I am on a list now for googling
horizon how to kill a human being
Eh, who am I kidding, everyone is on whatever lists the powers that be decide they want us on....
Synopsis:
Oh wow that looks interesting, I'll have to have a watch!
If done right, sure.
Alabama tried to kill the person first in line already with lethal injection and failed, so the odds of them doing nitrogen gas right is pretty fucking slim.
They'd have to fuck it up to a truly astonishing degree for it to be anywhere near as bad as a failed execution using the other methods currently in use. Like maybe use chlorine gas instead of nitrogen.
They just need to not have good seals on the mask so non-nitrogen air leaks in which would give the same symptoms as slow suffocation.
Note that they keep fucking up to an astonishing degree, so it is likely to happen with any method they try.
If you don't understand the science, please STFU.
A bad seal means that the co2 is not being removed properly and not being replaced with nitrogen as designed. Plus the person knows they are being killed, which makes the smallest physical symptoms more noticeable since people do notice things they are expecting.
Being hostile while defending the state that keeps fucking up executions makes you look like an ass.
No. It would either work more slowly or it wouldn't work. There would be no pain.
The feeling of suffocation comes from a buildup of CO2 in the body, not from a lack of oxygen.
Since regular air is pretty close to 80/20 nitrogen and oxygen, simply removing the oxygen results in a painless, odorless death.
It's actually a concern for people using rebreathers. If the CO2 scrubber keeps working but new oxygen isn't introduced into the system, the diver will go from feeling fine to passing out without ever knowing it.
Air leaks means that the co2 is not going to be efficiently removed, and your example of a diver is actually supporting the point that the seal needs to be really good for it to be effective. Note that the person drifting off in an execution knows they are dying which is different than just drifting off unknowingly. Painless doesn't mean it isn't causing stress from the knowledge of imminent death.
Plus the underlying context of the state fucking up all of their execution methods shows they will fuck this up too. It doesn't matter how good the method is in theory when they are incompetent.
You really don't know what you're talking about here.
A poor mask seal won't cause them to inhale enough of their exhaled CO2 unless they're also putting a bag over their head, and the level of atmospheric CO2 doesn't cause the sensation of suffocation, otherwise you'd feel like you were suffocating at all times.
The death penalty is barbaric, but if you're going to do it, this is the least-painful method, and one in which botching the execution simply results in nothing happening, as opposed to ther methods where it causes pain and injury.
Yes, the psychological pain/stress isn't alleviated by nitrogen. I personally think the biggest improvement they could make (aside from abolising the death penalty) would be to do it without a mask in a hyperbaric chamber where the elevated partial pressure of nitrogen would result in nitrogen narcosis and may relieve some of the stress.
A poor seal affects air going in and being pulled out, because the outside air can flow past the air next to the mouth and down the exit tube without going through the person's lungs. Especially if the faulty seal is on the exit tube connections, which is the kind of fuck up that the state is fully capable of doing.
Without that circulation, they will keep breathing the same air, which will build up CO2.
The system is complex and you apparently assume it is simple and comparable to a room full of nitrogen. The mask is actually more complex.
You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
I'm not talking out of my ass because I read some random opinions online. Are you a University lecturer that teaches courses on the medical effects of pressurized gasses? I am. Do you have certification granting you authority to service and inspect medical gas systems, regulators, full-face masks, and pressure vessels? I do.
A blocked exhalation valve and a bad seal are not the same thing. They're actually the opposite, though a blocked valve can result in a bad seal as the pressure inside the mask inceases. But the escaping high-pressure gas will result in a venturi effect that will pull away the exhaled gasses.
It's actually harder to screw it up with a mask versus a room because the small volume of air compared to the necessary rate of flow causes the air to be more turbulent and prevents dead-air spaces. Basically, the incoming nitrogen flushes out the contents of the mask unless the seal is so bad that the nitrogen doesn't flow in the mask at all, in which case the CO2 escapes into the room through the same shitty seals that don't contain the Nitrogen.
The biggest risk is someone simply forgetting to turn the valve to let in the nitrogen, though that's dead-simple to prevent with a 1-way gasket that allows outside air in if the pressure in the mask drops below outside pressure (when the victim inhales). Though in that particular case it is important that the CO2 not be allowed to form a dead zone, which is done by having more 1-way gaskets in front of the mouth and nose that doesn't allow exhaled gasses back.
You know - the same high-tech shit they use in the base of $12 snorkels that work for decades in salt water.
First, I doubt your claimed credentials because you are an anonymous person on the internet.
Second, the actual process they are using was provided in a highly reacted version that experts have pointed out makes the process unclear. The only reason to hide this information is to obscure the fact that it was poorly designed.
Third, the state is unlikely to have someone who is qualified to design and implement this process correctly because people who work with medical systems are unlikely to be involved with the death penalty, and this is not the same thing as a snorkel or they would be using that.
All that said, you keep acting like it is simple while dancing around the fact that they keep fucking up simple things when executing people. Who cares how easy it is to make chocolate milk when the person who is making it still fucks it up?
You really don't seem to understand how little is required to make it work.
This snorkel mask and a hose to a nitrogen canister would be incredibly effective.
I'm not even joking. They made a 3D-printable adapter to the mask for attaching N99 filters. It's safe because it isolates incoming and outgoing air, which would make it work great.
And that's a hundred mask. The final design would obviously have more going on. For a couple hundred you can have one with an on-demand regulator operating just fine.
Or just use a SCBA (firefighting) mask hooked up to a nitrogen tank.
Are they doing that or just using something cobbled together from home depot leftovers? That is the concern.
The hundred dollar thing I just showed you IS a Home Depot solution.
Or they could grab a decommissioned mask from any fire department and hook it up to a nitrogen tank they got from Home Depot and it would work even better as a regulated system.
Or they can use a 40 dollar painting respirator hooked up to the nitrogen tank. That would also work great as a positive pressure system.
Or it wouldn't work at all. That's the whole idea. It's really hard to fuck it up, and if you do, then nothing happens at all.
Either it allows the nitrogen in and the CO2 out, or the nitrogen pressure pops the seal on a jammed mask and they can breathe just fine, or it doesn't show any air movement at all because the gas isn't on which is blindingly obvious within the first second and the mask is removed.
All it is is displacing regular 21/78 air with hypoxic air (doesn't even need to be pure N2 - lethal hypoxia is around 0.1PPO²) - neither of which contain enough CO2 to give the sensation of suffocation.
I understand the arguments put forth, so how about a band saw?
I feel divided on this topic.
Im in two minds about it.
I’m personally a fan of the James Bond’esque “Strap them to a Saint Andrew’s cross and slowly cut them in half with a burning laser” method.
Starting from the crotch, going up
What if we lay them on their side, and start at the feet, so you get a front half and a back half?
Ooh that sounds fun
So both sides just wanted some blood eagle shit
We want rehabilitation
It was just too far removed from either side.
Man if I were the guy this was first being tested on I would probably try and fuck it up in the worst way possible just to screw with the people executing me.
Like as soon as the gas turns on start screaming my ass off like they mixed up nitrogen gas with acid gas instead and produced the worst pain ever until I finally passed out.
Pretty sure I know which one you're talking about. Was British... BBC or something... But is on YouTube.
I remember the scene where he is in a hypoxic state himself in a chamber and he needs to press a big red button or he dies. They kept telling him "press the button or you die" and he was just so high and goofy laughing about it and not pressing the button.
Very interesting show as you say.
One night working late a coworker of mine nearly went that way. He was just tired and said he was spacing out. Meanwhile the alarms were blaring.
Just wrong. You only drift off if you are unaware that you are suffocating! The person being executed is fully aware that they are dying via suffocation. That person is going to be in full panic mode trying to get as much air into their lungs as possible.
Source?
This place is a gold mine
I thought a whip-it
How do you source that? If people actually cared about quick and painless we'd just go back to beheadings. But it's not for the person being executed. It's so people can feel good about themselves when it's done.
Have you experienced the effects of nitrogen? I'm asking where you got that info from. There are videos of the use of nitrogen on animals.
Those videos do not match what you are describing.
Well I have seen someone nearly die from it and according to him he was just tired and spacing out.
Same. Diving tank fill accident near Wilmington, NC. Just like CO, they had basically no idea. Not even the headache that CO gives you.
Pure nitrogen gas is a significant industrial hazard for the reasons you stated. There is sure to be an element of panic since they are aware that they are being executed. That is going to be true whether the execution is being done via hypoxia, injection, or firing squad.
I suppose it depends on your exact definition of suffocating. You will absolutely be able to take full, satisfying breaths the entire time. If you do not tell them when the gas is turned on, even knowing that it's coming, they would be unlikely to even notice.
While there are no clinical studies (for obvious reasons), there is footage of industrial accidents. It seems that people succumb VERY quickly, possibly on their first full breath.
Most debates around execution methods are about the method itself. They typically exclude the morality and cruelty of the idea of a death penalty in general. I don't think this one can be separated, though. The concern is that it's untested for executions, but the only way to test it is to use it for executions. There is ample evidence of its use on livestock, but this is of limited value for humans.
As a side note, no medical doctors can be involved with executions. It's a direct violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
This is false.
The previous statement requires faith. Otherwise it would probably be true.