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this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2024
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The bill of rights protects rights, it doesn't create rights. That is a pretty fundamental concept.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
As written, the right to bear arms only applies to people who are in a well regulated militia.
To me it seems like that statement is broken down into two parts, divided by the second comma.
What it's premise is is that a militia could be formed at any time when the need arises (the Minutemen, etc.), so all the citizenry can have guns so that they are armed when the militia is formed.
~~Now if back then militias always existed, and they were not formed/disbanded as needed, then ignore what I just said, as it's incorrect.~~ Edit: just realized if they're always formed or not wasn't the issue, its if they were given guns to fight or if they had to bring their own guns to the fight.
Interesting, I'd never read it that way before. A lot of interpretation sure does seem to hinge on those little commas.
This is how I've always read it, especially given the historical context of the minute men being ready to go within a minute should the continental army/US call them to service.
The US wasn't intended to have a standing army when we were founded, it was supposed to be militias.
The current constitution was created in part to allow a standing army to exist. It turns out not having a standing army and relying in 13+ militias to become an army doesn't actually work.
The difference between an army and a milita being premeditation.
This provision is completely irrelevant because we now have literal national guard in every state. The 2nd needs to be removed entirely. There is no need for militias anymore to defend the US against Britain or any other country.
Well, that's a whole other different conversation to be had. I just replied with an interpretation of the actual amendment.
Our forefathers expected us to modify and enhance the Constitution over the centuries, and not that it would be static forever, mired in the time frame of when it was written.
Modify through amendments, not malicious interpretation
But if you follow this logic, how does it apply to the modern world? At the time, there was no standing army, but people could be called up to serve at anytime. There was no all-powerful military industrial complex, so people may need to supply their own gear. Hunting was common and war technology was primitive, so the gear you might keep anyway was directly applicable to war. The goals of this amendment really don’t apply anymore, so how can this topic best serve the people?
The monkey paw curls. Gun control laws that do not exempt people who are in a well regulated militia are unconstitutional.
This would...be good actually? The scary thing about guns isn't revolutions, it's random sad men poisoned with conservatism doing a mass shooting.
It would invalidate every firearm regulation at the federal level. None of them include carve outs for militia.
Do you need to explicitly include carve-outs or are those implicit? Don’t laws just get interpreted with the constitution in mind, without having to be completely thrown out? Genuinely asking!
Monkey's toe curls: well regulated means heavy government oversight and oh, so many sensitivity and diversity equity trainings
I would support an affirmative action firearm ownership program.
In this context "well regulated" meant "in proper working order" not heavily overseen.
The modern use of "regulated" isn't the same as it was then.
Regulation had to do with training and equipment. The idea was that militias, as opposed to a standing ("Regular") army, weren't always trained and armed when they were called to arms. The idea of a "well-regulated militia" was for civilians to already have weapons and understand their use if they were needed.
So a requirement for a well-regulated militia is for civilians to have the right to own and use weapons.
Is it antiquated? Maybe. But saying that "well-regulated" militia was meant to limit access to firearms is an argument based on either ignorance or dishonesty.
Well not quite. Well regulated did also include training and they did not consider the average person to be well trained enough to qualify for the phrase.
Aren't there already limits on what firearms people can have? Also, if understanding their use is a requirement then why isn't training necessary to purchase one?
Aside from the fact that "training" takes many forms, what the law is saying is that, at a bare minimum, people need the right to keep weapons so that it's possible to form a militia. If you take a random person who has never owned a weapon and throw one in their hands they won't even know how to hold the damn thing.
If you spend any time at a gun range, the absolute scariest people are adults who have never handled a gun before. Without the right to own private weapons, if a civil defense situation were to arise and weapons were handed out, that would be everyone. As a national defense strategy, it's pretty awful.
So they made a law guaranteeing the rights for civilians to own and train on weapons.
As I said, we're not in any real threat If the British invading these days, but if we're talking about the original language there it is.
In regards to rights not being created...
Rights are a created and codified concept. Whether or not something is a right or not is decided by someone somewhere down the line. There is always a foundational document that expresses the right because in it's absence you don't really have a right you have either a privilege that can be taken away by a valid or at least powerful authority or you have a grey area where simply no law or social norm applies until further regulation is created. This is subject to change over time and location.
Rights as we understand them today are not naturally occuring. The idea isn't even particularly old in the grand scheme of things. Before that point laws definitely existed but they were pretty simplistic operating codes there was no higher echelon of law that superceed other law particularly just layers of powerful people who interacted with the law. If you were basically in charge of the law you could rewrite it as you saw fit and your potential consequences were pissing off someone who could band together and rebel against your authority. If you felt secure enough you could re-write anything through decree. Rights are a feature that was conceptualized or created from scratch in 18th century philosophy with the rise and design of modern concepts of democratic government.
The 2nd Amendment itself is a wonderful example of a non-universal right. Out of all the governments in rhe world today only four have a version of a right to firearms. The USA, Guatemala, Mexico and the Czech Republic. Of those only the US and Guatemala have no restrictions on both firearm type and a required licencing program. Outside of that guns are most often regulated but legal. Exceptions being situations like Japan where there is an almost total prohibition but where guns are legally purchasable ownership is covered under variation of regular property rights against government seizure sort of like how your car is.
You technically do not have a right specifically to a car. They are just legal to own without a licence and illegal to use without one. But use and possession are two independent principles. The right to property is subject to laws banning or regulations of specific things but also Constitutional rights against illegal seizure. There are a lot of things one can only legally possess only with an appropriate licence and that isn't a violation of property rights.