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this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2024
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
As written, the right to bear arms only applies to people who are in a well regulated militia.
To me it seems like that statement is broken down into two parts, divided by the second comma.
What it's premise is is that a militia could be formed at any time when the need arises (the Minutemen, etc.), so all the citizenry can have guns so that they are armed when the militia is formed.
~~Now if back then militias always existed, and they were not formed/disbanded as needed, then ignore what I just said, as it's incorrect.~~ Edit: just realized if they're always formed or not wasn't the issue, its if they were given guns to fight or if they had to bring their own guns to the fight.
Interesting, I'd never read it that way before. A lot of interpretation sure does seem to hinge on those little commas.
This is how I've always read it, especially given the historical context of the minute men being ready to go within a minute should the continental army/US call them to service.
The US wasn't intended to have a standing army when we were founded, it was supposed to be militias.
The current constitution was created in part to allow a standing army to exist. It turns out not having a standing army and relying in 13+ militias to become an army doesn't actually work.
The difference between an army and a milita being premeditation.
This provision is completely irrelevant because we now have literal national guard in every state. The 2nd needs to be removed entirely. There is no need for militias anymore to defend the US against Britain or any other country.
Well, that's a whole other different conversation to be had. I just replied with an interpretation of the actual amendment.
Our forefathers expected us to modify and enhance the Constitution over the centuries, and not that it would be static forever, mired in the time frame of when it was written.
Modify through amendments, not malicious interpretation
But if you follow this logic, how does it apply to the modern world? At the time, there was no standing army, but people could be called up to serve at anytime. There was no all-powerful military industrial complex, so people may need to supply their own gear. Hunting was common and war technology was primitive, so the gear you might keep anyway was directly applicable to war. The goals of this amendment really don’t apply anymore, so how can this topic best serve the people?
The monkey paw curls. Gun control laws that do not exempt people who are in a well regulated militia are unconstitutional.
This would...be good actually? The scary thing about guns isn't revolutions, it's random sad men poisoned with conservatism doing a mass shooting.
It would invalidate every firearm regulation at the federal level. None of them include carve outs for militia.
Do you need to explicitly include carve-outs or are those implicit? Don’t laws just get interpreted with the constitution in mind, without having to be completely thrown out? Genuinely asking!
If you have a law that says "a person cannot carry a gun in a courthouse", that would mean everyone, including police, cannot carry a gun in a courthouse. You can say, "felons cannot possess firearms." I guess that "exempts" people who are not felons implicitly.
I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly. A portion of a law can be struck down without the whole law being struck down as unconstitutional.
Thanks, I think you answered with your last sentence. They could conceivably just make the part of the law that affects militia members invalid, and keep the rest. Or do they have to literally strike out clauses in the language of the law? If it’s worded too generally it would be impossible to do so without gutting it.
I think that depends on how the law is written and in what way the law is unconstitutional.
I try to be nice to people asking questions.
edit: I mean, if you don't understand, and I didn't answer your question, please feel comfortable to ask more questions.
Monkey's toe curls: well regulated means heavy government oversight and oh, so many sensitivity and diversity equity trainings
I would support an affirmative action firearm ownership program.
In this context "well regulated" meant "in proper working order" not heavily overseen.
The modern use of "regulated" isn't the same as it was then.
Regulation had to do with training and equipment. The idea was that militias, as opposed to a standing ("Regular") army, weren't always trained and armed when they were called to arms. The idea of a "well-regulated militia" was for civilians to already have weapons and understand their use if they were needed.
So a requirement for a well-regulated militia is for civilians to have the right to own and use weapons.
Is it antiquated? Maybe. But saying that "well-regulated" militia was meant to limit access to firearms is an argument based on either ignorance or dishonesty.
Well not quite. Well regulated did also include training and they did not consider the average person to be well trained enough to qualify for the phrase.
It's both. Without weapons with which to train, a well-regulated militia made up of ordinary civilians isn't possible.
It's saying, with a weird comma out of place, that civilians can be armed so that a militia is possible.
False, George Mason quote "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason wrote a draft of what became the second amendment
Well yeah, a militia is a bunch of armed people with a goal.
A well regulated one knows how to use those weapons effectively, and as a group. In my opinion the law as it stands falls short of the mandate: The US should provide public weapons training and make sure its citizens know what the hell they're doing. That might actually save a few lives that are currently lost to accidents.
The USA should just do what many other countries do: universal compulsary military service for a time during early adulthood. That'd meet the mandate.
We have the man who wrote those words expanding upon them to say what he meant, and you're still saying "actually he meant something else."
I'm saying the words that made it into the bill of rights he championed explicitly say more than that, probably because it was written by James Madison and then cut down by Congress.
Yeah that's one of the pitfalls of the historical argument. There was more than one writer, and founding father. They absolutely did not agree on how widespread guns should be. However the term "Well Regulated Militia" was in common use to describe militias with extensive training to fight in the line and not just skirmish or be an extra force on the side. Alexander Hamilton states you cannot be a "Well Regulated Militia" training once or twice a year.
So it seems a bit disingenuous to now say it's everyone and there's no training or anything they would consider Regulation involved.
Aren't there already limits on what firearms people can have? Also, if understanding their use is a requirement then why isn't training necessary to purchase one?
Aside from the fact that "training" takes many forms, what the law is saying is that, at a bare minimum, people need the right to keep weapons so that it's possible to form a militia. If you take a random person who has never owned a weapon and throw one in their hands they won't even know how to hold the damn thing.
If you spend any time at a gun range, the absolute scariest people are adults who have never handled a gun before. Without the right to own private weapons, if a civil defense situation were to arise and weapons were handed out, that would be everyone. As a national defense strategy, it's pretty awful.
So they made a law guaranteeing the rights for civilians to own and train on weapons.
As I said, we're not in any real threat If the British invading these days, but if we're talking about the original language there it is.
Training would not take many forms if they federally mandated a set of training guidelines.
We do have a national training organization dating back to the 1800s established by the federal government.
It's called the Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and Firearms Safety, but is better known as the Civilian Marksmanship Program. Millions of gun owners participate in it in one form or another - including training and competition.
It is NOT required for owning a firearm, though participation is mandatory to buy a surplus military weapon (civilian-legal weapons only) from the government.