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this post was submitted on 16 Apr 2024
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I’ve been shocked at how little ammo we can produce. I always assumed America had more capacity to produce ammo. I get stingers and javelins are limited runs but 155mm ammo seems like something we should be able to produce in large quantities but we can’t.
We can definitely produce large quantities. The problem is that we are giving Ukraine our old garbage to fight with. They are two years into the war and still haven't received F16's
If we were serious we would have given Ukraine some good stuff at the start and they would have won before Russia was able to ramp up their weapons production.
I wouldn’t call the 155 ammo garbage. It’s just from our stockpile It isn’t as easy as hand them something. It’s takes training to use the weapon correctly. Most everything we’ve given is current issue for the United States military. You just can’t had them an f16. They need the equipment to use the f16. They need the training to fly the f16
Sure but it certainly doesn't take two years.
The point remains. Especially at the start of the invasion we just gave Ukraine old scraps. We did not give them what they needed to win, only to stall.
I would say what we gave was scarps. It’s all current issue hardware. Nothing was obsolete.
That’s been part of the problem. We can degrade our ability to fight by giving it to Ukraine.
The large gap is the 155mm ammo. We can’t keep up with that.
We were sending cold war era Garbonzo at the start
Biden is reportedly sending Ukraine old Soviet air defense weapons from America's own secret stockpile
An Obsolete German Tank Seeks a Second Life on Ukraine’s Front Lines
Ukraine is getting Soviet-era fighter jets from Poland after Germany approves transfer
And I can go on and on with that list. Even now Ukraine is still waiting for their F16s and it's probably too late by now.
We Soviet equipment because Ukraine knew how to use it and has the expertise to support it. Most of our current equipment is Cold War. The m16 is from the Cold War. The m1 is from the Cold War. The f16 is from the Cold War. The m4 is from the Cold War.
The javelin and stinger are all Cold War.
I’m not sure why you are focused on the f16. It won’t change the war. I always see non/military people acting like the f-16 is a super weapon.
Not necessarily. There's a reason they needed training for those old tanks. Germany having to grab some random 60 year old civvies to give the training because it was all rotting away in warehouses exemplifies that nobody wanted to use that stuff anymore and we were glad to ditch it. There's also plenty of old British and French tanks being used in Ukraine right now.
You are right there is stuff that the Ukrainians had before. But that's also the problem. We didn't want that cold war stuff ourselves, we already upgraded from it.
But when it comes to giving Ukraine our modern new equipment we got all stingy about it. It's not just F16's. No Reaper Drones, No modern tanks, even the anti air missiles are often old stuff. But we have new stuff! We just don't want to give it to Ukraine because then "we have nothing to defend ourselves".
Only recently have we really committed to giving Ukraine some newer weapons. But it's likely already too late now.
The m1a1 is still a modern thank. It’s better than anything the Russians have. We gave them the patriot. Our current air defense system. What’s newer than the patriot? What’s newer than the stinger or javelin ?
You keep saying things that aren’t true. We are not giving them garbage. We are giving them things they can use and are still better than the Russian crap they have.
We did give them a lot of Russian gear because they didn’t need training to use it. We won’t give them certain weapons because they are restricted and only for countries we’ve vetted.
The patriot stuff is fine. But it took more than one year for Ukraine to get the first ones. Same with the M1A1 tanks
Ukraine got some good weapons. I'm just saying that especially at the start of the war we were very much just dumping old garbage into Ukraine. If we didn't do a bureaucratic stall for 1-2 years and didn't allow Putin to get a war economy going but decisively sent modern weapons to Ukaine, Ukraine would have won by now. Russia did not have a good weapons arsenal at the start of the war.
But we did not do that and turned the war into a stall fest. Just barely giving Ukraine enough equipment to hold out while bleeding manpower. Zelensky had to regularly go on trips around the world asking for some modern weaponry.
And now we are finally getting them some new stuff but it's getting real obvious that it's just too little too late.
I’m not sure you understand how military equipment works. You. Can’t just hand someone an f16 and say happy hunting. Also Ukraine isn’t vetted for the technology. You act like they some trusted ally.
Ukraine at the time didn’t have a runaway that the F-16 could even use reliably. They didn’t have trained pilots. They didn’t have trained staff to maintain it. They didn’t have the equipment to maintain an f-16.
That’s why we gave them Soviet hardware.
Ukraine doesn’t have the skills to maintain an m1. They didn’t know how to operate one and we didn’t want our best technology falling into Russian hands. When an m1 breaks and we can’t keep control of it. We blow them.
Trump was the first to arm them and sent javelins. What do you think is better than the javelin in our arsenal?
What is better than the patriot?
It’s Zelenskyy job to ask for things but it’s our military job to give them what they can use. It’s also our job to make sure our country and countries with treaties are protected. We don’t have a treaty with Ukraine. Thei corruption in Ukraine is epic.
I support Ukraine but I don’t support just handing over anything they want but can’t use. You need the logistics to support the equipment. You need the know how to use the equipment.
We taught them how to use it and then they did the exact opposite in the counter offensive and made no progress. They didn’t want to use nato tactics which is how you fight with nato equipment
Yeah that was the excuse we used to not give it to them in the past. So what has changed?
Sure it takes training to use this equipment. But we did not start that training as soon as possible. We waited 1-2years and now then go "yeah actually you're getting slammed maybe we can get you some F16s and Patriot missiles".
In any case it's clearly too late now. Unless we start sending massive amounts of modern weaponry to Ukraine it's basically GG and all that we're doing now is throwing away more forcefully conscripted Ukrainian men as cannon fodder against Russia.
We’ve been training them.
To be honest most people expected them to fall quickly. They didn’t.
That's just the generic excuse politicians use. If we truly wanted it those weapons would be there in a heartbeat.
Just look how fast the paperwork for israel got done. Genocide Joe tapping his tiger team for that one.. Not for Ukraine as that article clearly states
We promised to "not let Ukraine fall". Half assing it because "we thought they would have already lost" is the opposite of those words.
There are no excuses. We clearly did not do everything in our power for Ukraine which is why they are now losing.
Israel is trained on the weapons and we have treaties with Israel. We do not have treaties with Ukraine
It isn’t our job to to save Ukraine. They are not an ally. They are someone with empathize with but they are not someone we have treaties with.
OK so we went from "we did everything we could" to "yeah we didn't but we don't have treaties with them who cares".
I'm just saying that maybe we shouldn't have pretended we were going to support Ukraine till the end if we weren't serious about it. There's just a lot of dead Ukrainians that have been thrown into the meat grinder for nothing now.
We have supported Ukraine. You seem to take the stance we should degrade our defenses to help Ukraine. That’s what you are asking and demanding.
Our military has an obligation to protect us and our allies first.
If anything you should ge asking why Biden ramp up ammo production quicker. Ukraine has asked for a rightly needs more artillery ammo. That’s more important than the f16. Yet, we still can’t product what they need with no real timeline to ever hit it.
We also should send more himars and rockets. They are effective, they’ve been trained on them and they have had good results with them.
There isn’t a magic weapon that is going to win the war for Ukraine. They need a lot of basic weapons which we can’t produce enough of to supply them.
I am saying either we give Ukraine what it needs to actually win or don't prolong pointless Ukrainian deaths.
As we promised to help Ukraine the first move would be the correct one. But this flip flopping only hurts them in the end.
We are giving them what they need. The problem is we ran out.
I remember from Churchill's memories that he mentions as a rule of thumb (based on his experiences in both world wars) that a country needs something like 4 years to put the ammo industry up the conflict requirements.... anyway, this isn't (yet) ww2 by 2 orders of magnitude.
I incorrectly assumed we had many factories running at smaller capacities. Turns out we shuttered those to save money.
I get things like cruise missiles are done in large batches but just assumed 155mm had several lines.