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this post was submitted on 28 Apr 2024
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That's correct, you do not. Like ALL "rights" in the USA, there is another law waiting in the shadows that completely contradicts it or makes it so that it's not possible without it being illegal.
You can protest. But only with permits on public and private land, without trespassing, obeying all police orders even if those are themselves illegal, blah blah blah.
The sooner Americans realize all their freedoms do not exist in reality the sooner something can be done to fix it.
A protest with a permit is just a parade
What happens if the permit request is denied? Does one sue them for infringement on their rights?
You protest anyway and embrace civil disobedience.
Too many people worship the law as if it was the word of god. They don’t realize we are actually making this shit up as we go, and the laws can be changed at any moment.
Thomas “I fucked Sally Hemings” Jefferson
The first amendment has absolutely no references to permits. In fact it explicitly says you absolutely do not need anything, and that protests are legally protected free speech.
You may protest all you want on public or federal land. I know. I routinely tell cops to "fuck off," because I know where I happen to be standing. I have yet to be arrested for a protest that I attended, and I have never even attempted to get a permit.
Privately owned property is the only place they can summarily arrest you, and that's just a trespassing charge.
Technically yes. In reality? Lmao. We've seen our first amendment right be abrogated time and again in the last 8 years.
Not in restricted areas like a military base or halls of congress.
Yeah keep reading. You're given one fake right and there are 100 other laws. Just because you're the right shade, telling a cop to F off, is a crime in itself even if they're completely wrong. Most people would be arrested just for that.
And that is the entire point. If "the law" is completely discretionary based on the encounter you have with the enforcers and the punishers (police, DA, judges, etc), then you have no rights. Step out of line and you're in prison.
The US is a shithole.
Trespassing. You have the right to assembly, but that doesn't extend to anywhere, any time.
These protestors could protest on the sidewalk, or get a permit and do a planned protest in a public park, or even work with the city to close roads for a planned march. As long as they kept it peaceful, police would have very little justification to arrest anyone.
Instead, they are doing it on college campuses, or public roads without permission. And when they are told to leave, they refuse. At that point, you are trespassing, and the police are justified in arresting you.
Civil disobedience grabs far more attention than protesting legally. We're here talking about their cause because it made headlines due to civil disobedience. But activism has its costs.
Most of these protests are being done in zones designated by the university for protest. They are supposed to be allowed to protest there, as long as it doesn't disrupt people getting to class and such.
Unless it's your place of residence, you are always trespassing if the owner (or employees acting on the owners behalf) tells you to leave.
Paying tuition doesn't give you unfettered access to the school.
Freedom of assembly and speech apply to public schools since 55 years ago from the Tinker descion.
Public school rules don’t generally apply to universities. Though there is a constitutional right present due to most schools being government or quasi-government actors and college campuses being traditional public forums (again, very generally), the exercise of some rights are more broadly interpreted while other are more narrowly interpreted.
Afaik, universities are private. Specifically, Columbia University is definitely private.
And the ruling you're talking about has a lot of restrictions which wouldn't apply here anyway.
You can't discriminate against cause. If you allow one protest to give speeches in the Quad, I suppose you would be required to give other causes equal access to the Quad.
These students created an encampment, which goes beyond past permitted protests at that university, afaik. I doubt university admin would allow that under any circumstances, even if they agree with the cause, because it sets a dangerous precedent.
But, again, this is a private university. These rules do not apply.
Even private schools have to allow some form of protesting.
Edit: listen to the lawyers instead of people telling you not to make your voice heard
https://www.thefire.org/news/heres-what-students-need-know-about-protesting-campus-right-now
https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/students-rights-speech-walkouts-and-other-protests?redirect=issues/free-speech/student-speech-and-privacy/students-rights-speech-walkouts-and-other-protests
https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/civil-rights/protests/2024/04/26/484816/charges-dropped-against-all-57-pro-palestinian-demonstrators-arrested-on-ut-campus/?amp=1
Especially because of the very same rule you cite, that universities can't discriminate based on viewpoint
https://bwog.com/2024/03/new-york-civil-liberties-union-and-palestine-legal-file-a-lawsuit-against-columbia-citing-suspension-of-students-for-justice-in-palestine-and-jewish-voice-for-peace/
https://www.nyclu.org/press-release/nyclu-and-palestine-legal-sue-columbia-university-over-student-group-suspension
Are the colleges these protesters being arrested from public schools, or private universities? As far as I was aware, most colleges/universities are private. Community colleges are public.
Both public and private.
https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/civil-rights/protests/2024/04/26/484816/charges-dropped-against-all-57-pro-palestinian-demonstrators-arrested-on-ut-campus/?amp=1
Some have already been forced to drop all charges against all students that were arrested precisely because the protests are legal and the students were peaceful. No laws were broken
Most colleges in the US are state universities that receive state and federal funding.
Are they? When I was in college, I don't think I ever saw somebody from college demonstrate, it always was someone from the outside who relied on the fact that universities allowed it.
Justified is the wrong word.
No, it is not. It is the accurate term describing the legal justification that the police need to legally remove the protestors from the premises.
So many of the replies around this topic live in the clouds. There's a reason protestors are being forcibly removed. People should understand the nuances of free speech and freedom of assembly. Choosing to disobey is taking on risk to your well-being.
These are facts. This is not commentary on whether the protestors are "right" or "wrong". But we should all know the risks they are taking for doing so, and understand when the universities and police are actually overstepping their authority.
You’re replying to people who can’t believe the injustice of these laws by explaining that the laws are legal. No consensus will be reached; these are two completely different perspectives. Personally, I think laws, being a made up construct, should generally promote positive behavior like stopping genocide, so I easily side with the protesters and commenters here expressing indignation alongside them.
The legality argument also ignores the police tradition of breaking the law while shutting down protests just because they can get away with it.
And that's precisely why it is so important to keep the legality of specific actions in mind while evaluating the actions of both the protestors, and the police, while having the conversation on protests and the responses such as these.
This conversation is the result of a direct reply to yet another comment indicating a lack of understanding of what is legal when protesting in the USA.
The morality of both the protestors and the authorities is far more subjective. But I keep seeing the same basic question "I thought it was legal to protest in the USA, how can they arrest them?", so clarifying the boundaries of your rights is a good starting point, IMO. And frankly, bears repeating due to how frequently this is misunderstood and misrepresented.
But they are public?
The first amendment in USA gives them the right to protest even on the school ground and the school can't deny permission if the students are peaceful. And they are.
Everything else you said as irrelevant.
Saying it doesn't make it so. You grossly misunderstand your rights, but I'm not going to repeat myself.
Tell the lawyers that
https://www.thefire.org/news/heres-what-students-need-know-about-protesting-campus-right-now
https://www.aclu.org/issues/free-speech/students-rights-speech-walkouts-and-other-protests?redirect=issues/free-speech/student-speech-and-privacy/students-rights-speech-walkouts-and-other-protests
https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/civil-rights/protests/2024/04/26/484816/charges-dropped-against-all-57-pro-palestinian-demonstrators-arrested-on-ut-campus/?amp=1
I only read the aclu one as the only reputable source I recognize. That doesn't say what you seem to think it says.
You yourself cited the requirement to be expression neutral. And I have provided links showing they weren't and that multiple student groups are suing because of it.
Are the students expected to just sit back and stay silent when the university doesn't allow them to express themselves on equal terms?
That's literally what protests are for, and also literally why charges were withdrawn against a whole bunch of students in at least one case, because it wasn't a "clear case of trespassing" when the students protested peacefully.
At least one police department has already figured it out
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2024/04/26/dc-police-george-washington-university-protests/
If the only legal way to protest is to do it alone in a field then the legality of the protest is a moot point. Protesting is about the public getting heard and the cost is to productivity. The cost shouldn’t be an arrest record and stigma. This isn’t because two or three assholes are disrupting a campus. Students are getting arrested in dozens. Professors are getting arrested too. What the colleges and universities are doing against their own students is unacceptable.
If the police can just tell you to leave then you don't actually have a right to protest.
There are so many felonies in this country you basically commit a few every day by accident.
Not for doubt, but because I can't think of any, can you give examples? Were you just hyperbolizing?
You can look it up, the federal code has over 5,200 crimes and that was over 2 years ago last I could find that someone counted. The average person unwittingly commits over 2 felonies a day.
What are some of the every day felonies? Where are you getting the two a day stat?
Small accounting errors, felony. Putting your pills into a reminder box and traveling accross straight line, felony. Accidentally drive an ATV or dirt bike onto unmarked federal land, felony. Delete CP of a used laptop, felony.
The fact of the matter is any felony that is common to commit, are kind of boring. The federal code is so long and complex that you can find thousands of cases of people being unexpectedly tried for odd felonies. The federal code has become so cumbersome that no one actually knows the law until you're in a court room with a bunch of lawyers paid to research that specific law.
Thanks for the suggestion! I looked it up and I feel a little bit more skeptical about your claim however I can see a number of those that could easily be trumped up or falsified especially things like injury to an officer and stuff like that.
https://clarifacts.com/federal-crimes-list/
Being right.
Pointing out that we're finding atrocities
It’s a tactic to break the protest, scare the protesters into compliance. Arrest them all, haul them off to jail. Ruin their futures. Then drop charges since they do have the right to protest, but now they won’t anymore
If you think the police need a reason you haven't been paying attention.
No. Be sure to vote for Democrats to keep the fascism ~~away~~ in power.
When people were protesting unarmed black people getting murdered in 2020; Donald publicly told police to rough them up during arrests, sent out DHS in unmarked vans to snatch people off the streets, tear gassed a group of protesters so he could hold his little Bible upside down. There's probably a bunch I am forgetting, it was a long fucking year.
That was the same year his dimwitted response to the pandemic caused tens or hundreds of thousands more deaths than otherwise.
He committed an insurrection. You want Repubs in power forever telling cops to beat the shit out of not only protestors, but voters? Go ahead with it.
When the Republicans are in power you are not allowed to criticize the Republicans.
When the Democrats are in power you are not allowed to criticize israel.
Genocide Joe should be rounded up in The Hague for violating international law to support Genocide
Republicans also says you can't criticize Israel. (they will happily let you attack jews, but not the state Israel, because of their Christian extremist cults)
who should I vote for, then?