this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2023
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Despite being a heavy cell phone user for more than 25 years, it only recently occurred to me that vertical navigation on most phones is inverted when compared to traditional computers. You swipe down to navigate upward, and up to navigate downward. I recently spent time using a MacBook, which apparently defaults to this "natural" scrolling (mobile-style), and I was completely thrown off by it.

I've been using natural scrolling on a couple of my own desktops ever since, mostly as a mental exercise, and I wondered...how many of you folks prefer this method?

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[–] towerful@programming.dev 137 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Trackpads and touchscreens get the phone way of scrolling.
These feel like you are interacting with a piece of paper, so you move the paper around.

Mousewheels get the traditional way of scrolling.
Mice are more like controlling something.
It just is. Like F1-F12 keys are always F1-F12 keys, not the alt-function (like media/brightness etc).

I hate that Apple has called it "natural" Vs "reverse" in some psychological reconfiguring that you are going against the grain if you don't agree with them (as opposed to them changing the established standard).

[–] digger@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago

I use natural on the trackpad and traditional using a mouse.

[–] thayer@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago

Good points all around, though I do use my alt-functions more than the function itself.

[–] jsdz@lemmy.ml 114 points 2 years ago (2 children)

It's a good thing Apple doesn't make cars. They'd put the gas pedal on the left just to be different, and claim it's more "natural" that way.

[–] helixdaunting@lemm.ee 34 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Don't give Tesla any ideas.

[–] Cpo@lemm.ee 11 points 2 years ago

Yeah, they would probably let you pay a small fee per month for this feature.

[–] SoonaPaana@lemmy.world 72 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I never remember which one is natural and which one is reverse. When I use a mouse or a trackpad, I am moving the scroll bar. When I am using a touch screen, I am moving the content.

[–] thayer@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

That makes sense and is probably the best no-nonsense rationale I've seen yet.

[–] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 years ago

my idea is that when I scroll on the mouse, the bottom part of the scroll wheel touches the content

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[–] HouseWolf@lemm.ee 48 points 2 years ago (8 children)

"Natural" only seems natural if you were raised mostly on touchscreen devices, I've never seen a desktop have inverted scroll like that.

On a side note, Why do so many Linux programs not support auto scrolling by default if at all?

I didn't even know autoscroll was the name of middle clicking to scroll were your mouse went until I switched to Linux and noticed it missing in certain places.

[–] schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 2 years ago

I think it is because of Unix/X11 tradition of the middle mouse button being for pasting the most recently selected text.

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[–] syklone@lemmy.ml 44 points 2 years ago (6 children)

There is nothing natural about "natural scrolling".

[–] winterayars@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 years ago

It feels like gaslighting.

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[–] mundane@feddit.nu 38 points 2 years ago (2 children)

In the beginning, the mouse did not have a wheel. The only way to move the view was by dragging the scrollbar with the mouse pointer. So when we got mouse wheels, it was easy to just connect the wheel to the scrollbar. And thus the traditional direction makes sense since you are moving the scrollbar, not the view. With time, the scrollbars became more and more hidden, and we got a disconnect between what we were scrolling (the almost hidden scrollbar) and what we thought we were scrolling (the view). When you think of it as manipulating the view directly, the natural scroll makes sense. Because that is what we do in touch devices (manipulate the view directly).

That said, I use traditional scrolling because it's what I am used to.

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[–] bceuhwps@lemmy.ml 37 points 2 years ago

Natural is totally unnatural.

[–] abuttandahalf@lemmy.ml 32 points 2 years ago

Traditional with mice, natural with touchpads.

Interesting story, I used traditional scrolling with touchpads all my life until I spent three years exclusively using a desktop. Came out of it suddenly rewired to scroll like I do on my phone.

[–] Holzkohlen@feddit.de 31 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Traditional for mouse, natural for touchpads.

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[–] rotopenguin@infosec.pub 30 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Real gangstas also switch their PGUP and PGDN keys to natural scrolling.

[–] funkajunk@lemm.ee 16 points 2 years ago

Easy there Satan

[–] cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de 23 points 2 years ago

I use traditional scrolling for everything except touch screens.

Traditional - unless it is fingers on the screen!

[–] i_lost_my_bagel@seriously.iamincredibly.gay 20 points 2 years ago (2 children)
[–] ours@lemmy.film 6 points 2 years ago

Unless it's a stick/yoke.

Pull is up, push is down.

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[–] Moobythegoldensock@lemm.ee 19 points 2 years ago (7 children)

Traditional for both scroll wheels and trackpads (trackpads are emulating a mouse, you heathers!) And inverted Y for gaming.

[–] Takumidesh@lemmy.world 6 points 2 years ago

I think trackpads emulating a mouse should be considered a poor implementation, a trackpad is different than a mouse and we should utilize that with the design. A trackpad is best imo when combined with gestures, almost as a hybrid between a typical touchscreen and mouse. For example pinching motions, two/three finger tapping, two handed use, etc are all options for a trackpad that don't work (or work poorly) on a mouse.

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[–] Ddhuud@lemmy.world 18 points 2 years ago

You meant traditional or the wrong way. There's nothing natural about it.

[–] Still@programming.dev 17 points 2 years ago (3 children)

I hate how natural is called natural cuz there's nothing natural about it, when using a touchpad or mouse you're controlling the viewport, mouse down should move the viewport down

[–] HouseWolf@lemm.ee 6 points 2 years ago

Seems to be a common thing in the UX design world to give your ideas very humanist or comfy sounding names. I get the intention to make change sound less threatening but it gives off very cult-like vibes to me.

But I ain't a designer by any means, I looked into abit of UX design/philosophy and was turned off by all the buzzwords and seeming lack of discussion around what users actually want.

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[–] Crozekiel@lemmy.zip 15 points 2 years ago

If it's a touch screen then the "natural way" is more intuitive, as it feels like grabbing the actual subject matter and moving it in a direction while my view point stays the same. Once my hand is not touching the subject matter, the traditional way is the only one that makes sense to me. I also get annoyed when something has scroll wheel zoom and up is zooming out, I have to reverse that back or I just don't use it.

[–] Snowplow8861@lemmus.org 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Start realising that the way you're used to scrolling with your mouse wheel, is a cog between you and the service it's moving. Actually you were using natural all along. It was the early touch pads that were wrong and nonsense.

[–] gravitasium@discuss.tchncs.de 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

This! I use traditional with wheels and natural with touchpads

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[–] MangoKangaroo@beehaw.org 14 points 2 years ago

Traditional for scroll wheels, natural for track pads.

[–] Quill7513@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Traditional. I'm too old to learn new things

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[–] GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org 12 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I hate "natural" scrolling but I understand that it's only because I've been conditioned for decades with the traditional desktop scrolling method. It's not "better", it's just not worth the effort to retrain myself for something that is merely equivalent.

UI design should not be dictated by what people learned on decades-old systems. It should be designed just as much for new users. So even though I personally hate it, I think it's a reasonable default.

I remember when I first started using GUIs, the scrolling direction seemed counterintuitive. As I introduced beginners to computing in the 90s, I saw many with the same confusion at first. "Why does it move up when I press down?" Everyone got used to it pretty quickly, but that doesn't make it "right".

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[–] SGHFan@lemdro.id 11 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Natural on mice, traditional on trackpads.

[–] pascal@lemm.ee 7 points 2 years ago

You monster!

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[–] Madiator2011@lm.madiator.cloud 11 points 2 years ago

Traditional for mouse and natural in case of touchpads. That what I use with my Mac :)

[–] archy@lemmy.world 11 points 2 years ago

Traditional. I imagine the mouse wheel on top of the screen, as if the wheel scrolls the screen content

[–] AgentGrimstone@lemmy.world 10 points 2 years ago

Traditional all the way. "Natural" is not right.

[–] pastermil@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 years ago

Traditional for mouse (and trackpoint).

Natural for touchpad.

[–] kingludd@lemmy.basedcount.com 7 points 2 years ago

We still scroll "down" to the "bottom" of the page, so how is moving your finger up more natural? Maybe i'm just old now.

[–] xilliah@beehaw.org 6 points 2 years ago

The scroll wheel is attached to the roller of the scroll, that's how I feel about it.

[–] eumesmo 6 points 2 years ago

Curiously, I used to work teaching tech-illiterate elderly people how to use computers/phones and they always expected the behavior to be like natural scrolling. Perhaps, it's indeed the natural way...

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