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submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by jordanlund@lemmy.world to c/politics@lemmy.world

"Progressives should not make the same mistake that Ernst Thälmann made in 1932. The leader of the German Communist Party, Thälmann saw mainstream liberals as his enemies, and so the center and left never joined forces against the Nazis. Thälmann famously said that 'some Nazi trees must not be allowed to overshadow a forest' of social democrats, whom he sneeringly called 'social fascists.'

After Adolf Hitler gained power in 1933, Thälmann was arrested. He was shot on Hitler’s orders in Buchenwald concentration camp in 1944."

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[-] bradinutah@thelemmy.club 128 points 1 month ago

Plus we keep using this outdated first-past-the-post voting system in the 21st century.

[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 69 points 1 month ago

Yup. We need ranked choice/instant runoff voting first.

[-] Cephalotrocity@biglemmowski.win 23 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)
[-] Quill7513@slrpnk.net 42 points 1 month ago

Literally any voting system other than the one we use is an improvement.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 24 points 1 month ago

Yeah, ranked choice already seems to have a lot of momentum, and would fix a lot. That counts more than theoretical perfection that may not even exist in the real world.

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[-] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 71 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

We desperately need more real third-party participation in politics, but voting for third parties in presidential elections doesn’t make that happen—the US voting system isn’t a business that adapts its products to meet consumer demand.

[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 38 points 1 month ago

Yup. We need ranked choice balloting first.

[-] someguy3@lemmy.world 20 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

in presidential elections

Or in House of Representative, or Senate. The real power is in Congress.

[-] TachyonTele@lemm.ee 29 points 1 month ago

Local elections is where most of the current people in power got started. Anyone voting for third party in the presidential race missed the boat.

[-] agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 month ago

Vote progressives into local offices so they can get experience to work in state offices so they can get experience to work in Congress so they can get experience to be a good presidential candidate. Also to fill offices at every level with progressives.

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[-] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 10 points 1 month ago

That... is the exact opposite of what the article is arguing. If one side of the political spectrum (inevitably right-wing) unites, they immediately run over the side that is split up into different fragments that are arguing over just how much of a school lunch should be subsidized by the government.

And we have seen this in the modern day as well. A couple months back basically the entire Left/Center-Left of France had to unite to try and prevent fascists from taking power and... it is unclear if they actually succeeded.

Its fun to parrot the exact same text every single time a topic comes up. But shit like this is a lot more important than meming about Subway and it is well worth understanding what efforts do and don't address and think through those problems. Otherwise we just leave ourselves more and more vulnerable to hate.

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[-] GarbageShootAlt2@lemmy.ml 55 points 1 month ago

The liberals fucking won that election and it was the liberal Hindenburg appointing Hitler to the Chancellorship that facilitated his rise to power, not anything the KPD did. This is disgusting historical revisionism that a search engine could dispel in 5 seconds, but you choose to warp history to make it look like Hitler actually won the election and make the liberals who enabled him seem blameless. It is, in effect, apologia for Nazi collaborators. Exactly appropriate for someone shilling for Dems while they gleefully subsidize genocide.

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[-] simplejack@lemmy.world 43 points 1 month ago

I feel like we need something like the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact that is aiming to eliminate the electoral college, but for Ranked Choice.

Passing this federally is too hard. We need do to this state by state.

Until I can vote for a third party with RCV, then I might as well be saying that I have zero preference about the GOP and DNC options on the table.

[-] empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 points 1 month ago

Alaska does it (assuming they won't repeal it in nov). Oregon is going to try and do it, if it hopefully passes. If we get two states proving it works and isn't a problem, that momentum can snowball.

Please help support the RCV effort in Oregon if you can. https://www.oregonrcv.org/

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[-] grue@lemmy.world 42 points 1 month ago

Blaming progressives for not aligning with centrists instead of blaming centrists for siding with Nazis to lock out progressives is a weird take.

[-] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 27 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That's historical revisionism. They would have easily created a coalition government to oppose Hitler, but without the support of the communist party, the conservative block ultimately held onto control, and Hitler was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg.

You're disingenuously conflating the conservatives that ceded power to the Nazi party (that had only taken about 30% of the vote) with the center left that reached out to the communists in an attempt to stop them. A decision by the head of the communist party that directly led to the murder of millions of people, including himself.

We are talking about a parliamentary system. The communists could have formed a coalition government that had a majority, but they refused. Without their support, no party won a majority or were able to form a majority coalition government, and the Nazis were able to take control from the conservatives in power (or more accurately, they gave it to them freely).

I'm not a historian, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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[-] Objection@lemmy.ml 40 points 1 month ago

Hitler didn't win because he beat Hindenburg after Thälmann split the vote. He lost to Hindenburg, the center-right candidate endorsed by the social democrats, then won anyway because Hindenburg appointed him Chancellor.

The social democrats were the ones who refused to back Thälmann, the only anti-Hitler candidate in the race. And the same way that the communists called them "social fascists," the social democrats used similar rhetoric, frequently saying that the communists were no different from the Nazis, that there was no difference between the far left and the far right.

But also, we don't have to keep rehashing 100 year old grudges from another continent.

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[-] ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml 32 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

There's a lot you can say about how broken US electoralism is, but using this as an example is just not accurate.

  1. Hitler wasn't elected by people, he lost to Hindenburg in 1932 and was appointed Chancellor later.

  2. The Nazis who appointed him Chancellor had the majority, meaning more than every other party combined. Meaning third parties didn't syphon the Hitler vote

  3. Hindenburg didn't want to appoint him, but meetings with industrialists made him change his mind

  4. Hindenburg then gave Hitler more powers after the Heischtag fire.

If anything, it's an example of what happens when you reach over the aisle and compromise with nazis.

[-] LovingHippieCat@lemmy.world 15 points 1 month ago

Number 2 is wrong. The nazis never had a majority, only a plurality. If the other parties, the social democrats, the communist party, and the Centre party had banded together instead of fighting amongst themselves, he wouldn't have been made Chancellor.

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[-] frezik@midwest.social 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The real lesson, I think, is that fascists take power when the mechanisms of liberal democracy crumble away.

I have great reason for concern on this in modern times, even if the details are different.

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[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 32 points 1 month ago

I’m not voting for Harris. I’m voting against Trump via Harris.

[-] MimicJar@lemmy.world 36 points 1 month ago

I'm voting FOR Harris in the same way I was previously voting FOR Biden. Biden/Harris & Harris/Walz support policies that most closely match those policies I support.

If Trump died tomorrow I still wouldn't support Vance or any other Republican because they support policies that I am strongly opposed to.

I would like to have more options, but realistically those are my choices.

I don't have to agree with Harris/Walz on 100% if issues. I'm allowed to criticize them. But at the end of the day I'm voting FOR something and not just against the worst possible choice.

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[-] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 29 points 1 month ago

Do not forget that in '32 the SPD backed Hindenburg... who then nominated Hitler as chancellor.

Thälmann was foolish, but even if he didn't run, Hitler would still get into power. If the far right is strong enough, mere electoralism will not stop them. Fighting them must happen on the street level.

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[-] Professorozone@lemmy.world 27 points 1 month ago

We could avoid this with ranked choice voting.

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[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 23 points 1 month ago

Progressives should not make the same mistake that Ernst Thälmann made in 1932

The mistake Ernst Thälmann made was not throwing his support behind checks notes Paul von Hindenburg, the man who ordered the police massacre of the Spartacus League?

After Adolf Hitler gained power in 1933, Thälmann was arrested.

Who elevated Adolf Hitler to the Chancellorship in 1933?

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[-] AbsoluteChicagoDog@lemm.ee 23 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Republicans are not going to suddenly stop being evil, so what's the solution? Just endlessly comprise and never accomplish anything? Fuck that. I refuse to be held hostage. If Democrats want leftist votes then they have to deliver leftist policies. Otherwise they're just as responsible

[-] Suavevillain@lemmy.world 12 points 1 month ago

That is what Liberals are perfectly fine with. An infinite state of groveling with people in power and never doing anything else. They are hostile to protesters too and ignore bad actions by Dems. Everything turns into but Trump is worse.

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[-] Weirdmusic@lemmy.world 16 points 1 month ago
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[-] N0body@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 month ago

The only way a third party would be viable in the US is if it grew organically from small, local races that aren't captured by large donors. A dedicated group of volunteers knocking on doors and spreading a message can have a real effect in those races. Get a few candidates in office and start doing some good, and a party can grow around it. Draw up a blueprint for how you did it, and spread it around to other towns and cities, making allies with other local groups as they spring up.

Is that easy to do? Of course not, but that would be a viable path for the formation of a functioning third party.

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[-] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 12 points 1 month ago

Just a note, while ranked voting is much better, the people who are influenced by parties that game the system and a gullible ignorant base usually consolidate themselves into one big party that still does everything to undermine the rest of the coalitions as long as it makes them look bad even if it's worse off for society as a whole and that like a tumor can keep growing until it goes past the midpoint for toppling the democracy that elected it. It's part of the solution, but not all of it, societies act like headless chickens when things get bad enough, regardless of who was responsible for them. For example, Brexit.

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this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2024
507 points (85.4% liked)

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